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Author Topic:   Quick Questions, Short Answers - No Debate
dwise1
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Posts: 2675
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 421 of 442 (794792)
11-26-2016 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 420 by caffeine
11-25-2016 4:38 PM


Re: Why is My Smartphone's Time Off?
Well, what you are talking about is something entirely different. Time zones involve adding a timezone offset to UTC, so UTC is still being used. And daylight savings (AKA "Summer Time" in the UK) is yet another different and separate topic which adds an offset to the local standard time, which involves adding a timezone offset to UTC. So it still all comes back to UTC.

Still, it's interesting to look into these things. GMT dates back to 1675 and was used in navigation to calculate longitude. Knowing the local time and GMT, you can calculate your longitude. This was where marine chronometers came into play, though it took another century to develop them. Lacking a chronometer, surveyors did have a telescope and an ephemeris. For example, if Jupiter was present, they would observe its moons and consult the ephemeris, whose entries were set for GMT, to calculate what GMT must be at the time of observation and they would set their pendulum clock to that time (obviously, the pendulum clock would not work during transport). From that they could calculate their longitude (divide 360 by 24 hours and you get 4 minutes of time per degree longitude) and then work all their surveying of that area off that longitude.

Now, the thing about the Prime Meridian is that there have been a great many throughout history -- see Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_meridian (do follow that link for a long list of such Prime Meridians and links to pages about them). Practically every country had its own private Prime Meridian. France's Prime Meridian runs through Paris at 220′14.03″ east relative to the Prime Meridian at Greenwich and I seem to recall that it was used in The Da Vinci Code, though the Arago medallions were laid down around 1994. It wasn't until 1884 that an international agreement established Greenwich as the Prime Meridian of the entire world, though France and Brazil abstained from that agreement, France until 1911 for timekeeping purposes and 1914 for navigation.

Time zones have a different history. Traditionally, every individual community had its own local time which they could read almost directly from their sundials (actually, because of earth's elliptical orbit about the sun, solar time varies very regularly throughout the year according to the Equation of Time whose graph can be found on most of the better sundials. Train travel and the associated schedules ruined all that. Again, for every degree of longitude you travel, time changes by one minute -- as I seem to recall, one degree longitude equates to 60 nautical miles at the equator and shrinks as you travel north and south away from the equator (I've done the math a few times, but don't have my notes with me). Britain is where time zones, or at least time corrections, started in which railroad time was based on GMT and every station had to synchronize with that. That involved telegraphed time signals being transmitted and there's reference to clock with two minute hands, one for local time and the other for GMT.

I believe that it was in the USA that, again because of the need to standardize time to accommodate train schedules, the idea of Standard Time was developed in which entire regions would be set to the local time on that region's Standard Time Meridian. Do the math again: divide 360 by 24 hours and you get one hour of time per 15 degrees longitude. A Scot in Canada, Sir Sandford Fleming, proposed a worldwide system of time zones in 1879. It went through some iterations and was presented at the 1884 International Meridian Conference that adopted Greenwich as the world's Prime Meridian, but a world-wide system of time zones was not adopted:

quote:
On the question of universal time, Fleming's opinion to one of the lead-up committees was borne out: "In my judgment, the nearest approach to it which may be attempted with any chance of success, is to have first, a primary standard time, based on the prime meridian that is to be used for non-local purposes; second, to have twenty-four secondary standard times to govern local reckoning." There was discussion of setting zones as small as 10 minutes (2), but no motion was tabled as there was little experience to guide the choice.

Most European countries aligned their clocks with Greenwich within ten years, Sweden and North America already having done so, and the trend continued. The French maintained Paris time till 1911 and the following year convened a second conference to address the differences between different observatories which had become apparent, leading to the establishment of the Bureau International de l'Heure after World War I.
{https://en.wikipedia.org/...nal_Meridian_Conference#Outcomes -- please follow this link because the quote contains other links which may be of interest }


From what I've read, it was to be left to each region which time zone it fit into. Go here to see the resultant map. Crazy, but fortunately not too much so.

Last September, I went on a cruise out of Southampton to the south of Spain. Every day, the ship's newsletter included times for sunrise and sunset. Those values seemed crazy, given that the time in Spain west of the Prime Meridian was set to the time in Berlin, one hour to the east of Greenwich. OK, so it is politically expedient for the EU to all be within the same time zone, but hey, the USA has been able to function quite well with four different time zones. OK, so maybe we will very shortly need to redefine "being able to function" when it comes to the USA.

Daylight Savings is another matter. The basic idea is that since in the summer the sun rises before almost anybody wakes up to start the day, we could "steal" that unused morning hour of sunshine and move it to the evening where we could use it. And, of course, the farther north you are the greater the effect is.

Points of interest include that during major wartime, daylight savings gets implemented year-round. In the USA, it was called War Time. I forget what it was called in the UK, but then on top of the year-round "war time" they added the regular "Summer Time", calling it "Double Summer Time".

This kind of technicality bothers no one most of the time, except when a client based outside the UK asks me to call them at 15:00 GMT in June, and I'm left baffled if they mean British time or UTC.

I feel your pain.

The US military uses a system in which each time zone is given an identifying letter. I do not know where this system comes from. GMT is in the time zone centered over the Prime Meridian, which is Time Zone Z ("Zulu" in our phonetic alphabet). When I served in Comm Job Control, all the times in all our reports to higher authorities were in Zulu time. In that sense, Zulu time is UTC. One time, I made the mistake of "correcting" Zulu. Uh, no, that does not ever fly.

I hit a situation a bit over a decade ago. At that time, we had a few German engineers working with us. One day one of them approached me with a question. His plane ticket was for 12:30 PM. Was that half past midnight, or half past noon? I was actually as stymied as he was since I had been on 24-hour time since the late 1960's. US schedules are always in 12-hour time, whereas the rest of the world that I have observed has always been on 24-hour schedule time.

Perhaps the solution is to ask the same question that you would ask a creationist: Just what the hell are you talking about?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by caffeine, posted 11-25-2016 4:38 PM caffeine has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 15407
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 422 of 442 (794794)
11-26-2016 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 421 by dwise1
11-26-2016 4:10 AM


Re: Why is My Smartphone's Time Off?
A couple other data points. My desktop computer is 11 seconds slow, my flip-phone is 14 seconds slow.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by dwise1, posted 11-26-2016 4:10 AM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2675
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 423 of 442 (794807)
11-26-2016 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by Percy
11-26-2016 6:27 AM


Re: Why is My Smartphone's Time Off?
Part of the issue with the computer would be 1) whether it is set up to get time from an NTP server (I will assume that it is) and 2) when it synchronizes its time with that NTP server. My XP and Win7 boxes at work were spot-on, but my Win10 box at home was off by about half a minute. In the earlier versions, you could right-click the time on the task bar, select Adjust, select the Internet Time tab, and click on the update time button (I seem to recall that there's one more layer to drill down through).

That doesn't work on Win10, where you instead get Settings' time settings page which does not provide that option. So I unselected automatic time updates, left Settings, then entered back in and reselected that option in order to force an update. That did work and now my computer's time was spot-on (has probably drifted since then). But that was far too inelegant.

Turns out that Win10 still has the Control Panel -- WindowsKey-R and run control. Pick the Date and Time option and it will open up the old familiar Adjust Time dialog with its Internet Time tab.

If you're running something like Linux, then do whatever it takes to sync up with your NTP server (I've been away from that environment for over a decade). Same with your flip-phone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Percy, posted 11-26-2016 6:27 AM Percy has responded

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Percy
Member
Posts: 15407
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 424 of 442 (794808)
11-26-2016 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by dwise1
11-26-2016 1:20 PM


Re: Why is My Smartphone's Time Off?
I'm running Windows 7 with auto-synchronizing. The Linux server for the website is 3 seconds slow, it auto-synchronizes, too. I don't know the frequency of either one.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8747
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 425 of 442 (794810)
11-26-2016 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by dwise1
11-26-2016 1:20 PM


Win 10 old stuff
Windows Key + X is easier. It gets a list of all the stuff you want including control panel.
This message is a reply to:
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Modulous
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Posts: 7232
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 426 of 442 (794886)
11-30-2016 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 418 by dwise1
11-25-2016 2:45 PM


Re: Why is My Smartphone's Time Off?
For example, if the Windows phones were set to use an NTP server such as time.windows.com then it would be on-time

Yes. But they aren't set to use NTP servers. They use NITZ:

quote:
In terms of standards and other timing or network access protocols such as NTP or CDMA2000, the quality and enforcement of NITZ is weak. This standard allows the network to "transfer its current identity, universal time, DST and LTZ"[1] but each is optional, and support across RAN vendor and operator varies. This presents a problem for device manufacturers, who are required to maintain a complex timezone database, rather than rely on the network operator. Additionally, unlike 3GPP2, which transmits GPS-sourced, millisecond resolution time via the sync channel, for NITZ, the "accuracy of the time information is in the order of minutes".[1] The optional nature of the delivery mechanism results in issues for users in regions that don't practice daylight savings but which share a time zone with a region that does. Most modern handsets have their own internal time zone software and will automatically perform a daylight savings advance. Because the NITZ delivery is not usually periodic but dependent on the handset crossing radio network boundaries, these handsets can be displaying incorrect time for many hours or even days before a NITZ update arrives and corrects them.

Because: Microsoft

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18146
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 427 of 442 (795048)
12-05-2016 9:00 AM


Is there a way to embed facebook videos? they provide this coding:

and it works!


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

Replies to this message:
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Admin
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Posts: 12388
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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(1)
Message 428 of 442 (795050)
12-05-2016 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 427 by RAZD
12-05-2016 9:00 AM


There's no Facebook video equivalent to the [youtube/utube] dBCode, but I could "easily" create a [facebook/fbook] dBCode. I'll try to squeeze it in when I need a break.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18146
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 429 of 442 (795311)
12-10-2016 9:21 PM


Moon Earth Impact - for Adminnemooseus
in Message 8 of proposed thread Mediterranean sea, Hudson bay and the Mississippi embayment

Adminnemooseus writes:

There may be some germs of truth buried in there, but much is fantasy.

...Moon impacted 13kya...

I think that the Moon impacting the Earth ever is an outlandish concept, much less this having happened 13kya.

Actually more like 4.5 billion years ago:

quote:
Giant-impact hypothesis

The giant-impact hypothesis, sometimes called the Big Splash, or the Theia Impact suggests that the Moon formed out of the debris left over from a collision between Earth and an astronomical body the size of Mars, approximately 4.5 billion years ago, in the Hadean eon; about 20 to 100 million years after the solar system coalesced.[1] ... Analysis of lunar rocks, published in 2016, suggests that the impact may have been a direct hit, causing a thorough mixing of both parent bodies.[3]

The giant-impact hypothesis is currently the favoured scientific hypothesis for the formation of the Moon.[4] Supporting evidence includes:


See article for list.

So yes impact, but no not 13kya, long after Homo sapiens walked into prehistory, and yes it pretty likely destroyed the prepubescent earth at that time.

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1701
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 430 of 442 (795909)
12-19-2016 8:30 AM


Missing message
Just curious as to what happened to msg 20 in the Be Very Afraid thread.
Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12388
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 431 of 442 (795913)
12-19-2016 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 430 by ProtoTypical
12-19-2016 8:30 AM


Re: Missing message
The image's website is either no longer permitting direct access to it, or it no longer exists and the website is trapping the missing reference.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Stile
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Posts: 2835
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 432 of 442 (797254)
01-16-2017 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 431 by Admin
12-19-2016 9:02 AM


Test and explanation of issue
Seeing if I can reply here.

Having trouble posting a reply to Message 27.

Always getting an error similar to:

quote:
This Page Cannot Be Displayed

The system cannot communicate with the external server ( www.evcforum.net ). The Internet server may be busy, may be permanently down, or may be unreachable because of network problems.

Please check the spelling of the Internet address entered. If it is correct, try this request later.

If you have questions, please contact IS Support Centre ( support@BUSINESSNAME.com ) and provide the codes shown below.

Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 14:18:07 GMT
Username: BUSINESSNAME\grastas@BUSINESSNAMERealm
Source IP: 10.15.51.141
URL: POST http://www.evcforum.net/Messages.php
Category: Religion
Reason: UNKNOWN
Notification: GATEWAY_TIMEOUT


I've tried posting from work (above error).
I've also tried posting from home (similar error, but nothing talking about "BUSINESSNAME" there). And, yes, I replaced the actual business name with the text BUSINESSNAME.

Both attempts have been with the same laptop (Win 7 Pro, SP1)
Work was with Internet Explorer (v11).
Home was with Chrome (v55).

I seem to be able to read posts without issue (anyway on forum) and when attempting to reply to Message 27 I am able to go into Preview mode, but I always get the above-ish error message when hitting the Submit Post button.

This post is my only other attempt to post else-where on the forum... so if this works, maybe it's something specific to that other message?

Edited by Stile, : Corrected second usage of 'mid' tag. Was pointing to wrong message.


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Stile
Member
Posts: 2835
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 433 of 442 (797256)
01-16-2017 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 432 by Stile
01-16-2017 9:30 AM


Re: Test and explanation of issue
Seems to work now.

After I got the post above to work in this thread I tried again on the other thread and it worked fine.
Maybe something weird with the cache on my laptop that got cleared by posting elsewhere?

*shrugs*

Seems all better now, though.

Thanks Do Nothing Button!


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 2835
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 434 of 442 (797296)
01-16-2017 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 433 by Stile
01-16-2017 9:33 AM


Re: Test and explanation of issue
Just got same issue trying to reply to Message 30.

Testing here again to see if it flushes it through again...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by Stile, posted 01-16-2017 9:33 AM Stile has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 2835
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 435 of 442 (797297)
01-16-2017 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by Admin
12-19-2016 9:02 AM


Re: Missing message
Weird. Didn't work this time.

I can post here, but not as a reply to Message 30.

I'll try again tomorrow

It's the gremlins, I tell you, the gremlins!!


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Replies to this message:
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