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Author Topic:   Creationist experiment to prove the possibility of Noah's ark
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 223 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 76 of 115 (549775)
03-10-2010 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Manifest
03-06-2010 10:47 AM


In fact I think in China they built an exact replica size wise of the boat so this shouldn't be hard to do.
http://www.clipsyndicate.com/...full_size_noah_s_ark_replica

Is it seaworthy? It would seem quite easy to build the thing to scale, but not put it in the water. Hell, he could have made it from cement.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"On a personal note I think he's the greatest wrestler ever. He's better than Lou Thesz, Gorgeous George -- you name it."-The Hulkster on Nature Boy Ric Flair


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ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 1829 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 77 of 115 (549776)
03-10-2010 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by hooah212002
03-10-2010 7:20 PM


Re: Why even build an Ark?
Not exactly. You'd just be keeping with a literal reading. It pretty clearly states that Noah built the Ark, but that God gathered the animals for him, or at least that they magically appeared on schedule. So no inconsistancy there. No mention of the Robot Monkeys, though.


I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by hooah212002, posted 03-10-2010 7:20 PM hooah212002 has responded

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 223 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 78 of 115 (549777)
03-10-2010 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ZenMonkey
03-10-2010 7:24 PM


Re: Why even build an Ark?
It pretty clearly states that Noah built the Ark,

Yes, yes it does. But:

but that God gathered the animals for him.

then that depends on your definition of "clearly". if we read it literally, the animals just poofed there: no god involved.


"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan

"On a personal note I think he's the greatest wrestler ever. He's better than Lou Thesz, Gorgeous George -- you name it."-The Hulkster on Nature Boy Ric Flair


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-10-2010 7:24 PM ZenMonkey has responded

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ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 1829 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 79 of 115 (549779)
03-10-2010 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by hooah212002
03-10-2010 7:28 PM


Re: Why even build an Ark?
You are correct. Here's Genesis 7:8-9

quote:
Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, male and female, came to Noah and entered the ark, as God had commanded Noah.

Poof!


I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 2261 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 80 of 115 (549849)
03-11-2010 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Taq
03-10-2010 2:32 PM


Re: Why even build an Ark?
JUC writes:
The story doesn't make any sense at any level.

Taq says:
Sure it does. It makes complete sense as a moral tale about a new god emerging within a cult in Mesopotamia. The relationship between man and this new god were told through age-old stories that already existed in the area, namely Babylonian myths. But in a historical, factual sense, no it doesn't make any sense at all.

But it wasn't a new god, was it? I admit it's been a long time since I read the story, but if I remember correctly the whole idea was that god was angry with mankind and wanted to wipe everyone out except Noah and his family. The story implies that the god and mankind had already been around for some time to get to that supposed state of affairs.

And, as Son says, how was drowning almost everyone a test mankind's faith? If god wanted to get rid of all the sin, surely the way to do it was to either wipe the slate clean and start again with new species, or to somehow magically change the existing species. Wiping out all but a few of every species and then allowing those species to breed again without changing their behaviour (we're still sinners, aren't we?) didn't achieve anything. What is the moral?


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Replies to this message:
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Itinerant Lurker
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: 12-12-2008


Message 81 of 115 (549880)
03-11-2010 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Taq
03-10-2010 2:32 PM


Re: Why even build an Ark?
quote:

It was a test of Noah's faith and a test for humankind as a whole.

Halfway through our states round of standardized testing a test where failure = drowning sounds delightful. That's pretty pass/fail then.


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Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 82 of 115 (549889)
03-11-2010 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Son
03-10-2010 3:51 PM


Re: Why even build an Ark?
Test for humankind as a whole? You mean he tested how long on average it took for a human to drown, or did he just want to see who would survive the longest? Did the strongest guy at least receive a prize?

If Noah had not built the Ark then humankind would have come to an end. Noah's actions were based on faith, and that was the test.


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Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 83 of 115 (549891)
03-11-2010 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
03-11-2010 4:24 AM


Re: Why even build an Ark?
But it wasn't a new god, was it?

Newer than the Mesopotamian gods. Given the lack of any evidence for the Exodus it is much more likely that the Hebrew religion originated in Babylonia. Given that the Bible borrows heavily from Babylonian religious myths this would seem to make sense. The Noah myth is a blatant copy of the Babylonian flood story. The Babylonian god Lilith makes an appearance in the Genesis creation myth in the form of the talking serpent. There are simply too many parallels to ignore.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 03-11-2010 4:24 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has responded

Replies to this message:
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 2261 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 84 of 115 (549906)
03-11-2010 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Taq
03-11-2010 10:57 AM


Re: Why even build an Ark?
Hi Taq

I'm quite willing to accept that Noah's Ark and other stories originated in Babylonian myths.

But the story still doesn't make moral or practical sense, even if it were a test of Noah's faith to see if he would build an Ark if he were warned about a flood.

Firstly, and I can't remember the story exactly, but if God told Noah to build the Ark because he was going to make a big flood, Noah was already in dialogue with God, so what was the test of faith? It couldn't have been a test of faith in the existence of God. It could only have been a test of faith in God keeping his word. But surely there are easier and more ethical ways to prove you will keep your word than by flooding the whole world and drowning everything.

And secondly, it still doesn't explain why it was necessary to build a boat to carry all the animals. If God could safely deliver a pair of animals from all over the world across the oceans to Noah, at what point and for what purpose did Noah's boat suddenly become necessary.

And it still doesn't explain why God didn't just zap everything dead, thereby proving himself and his word.


This message is a reply to:
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Apothecus
Member (Idle past 1144 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 85 of 115 (549912)
03-11-2010 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
03-11-2010 11:59 AM


Re: Why even build an Ark?
But surely there are easier and more ethical ways to prove you will keep your word than by flooding the whole world and drowning everything.

Or by commanding you to kill your only son. On an altar. With a big knife.

Sorry. Off topic.


"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964
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Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 86 of 115 (549919)
03-11-2010 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
03-11-2010 11:59 AM


Re: Why even build an Ark?
But the story still doesn't make moral or practical sense, even if it were a test of Noah's faith to see if he would build an Ark if he were warned about a flood.

I don't see it that way. When it is put into historical context and compared to the myths of the time it makes a lot of sense. You might as well ask why it was necessary to sink the Titanic just to get a couple of horny kids together. It's a moral tale writ large, an epic story. If it was just about a small event that happened to just one family what fun would there be in telling the story around the campfire?


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Son
Member (Idle past 1149 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 87 of 115 (549939)
03-11-2010 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Taq
03-11-2010 12:51 PM


Re: Why even build an Ark?
I think we are discussing past each others here. You're arguing that how the story came to be and how it is interpreted can make perfect sense given the context while others are pointing out that the story makes no sense if you interprete it the way creationnists do. It's not even clear to me that those two propositions are contradictory (btw ignore my previous post, it was just a lame attempt at humor but somehow I never manage to be funny on the net).
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pandion
Member (Idle past 319 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 88 of 115 (550021)
03-12-2010 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by hooah212002
03-10-2010 7:24 PM


Been there, done that
Yet another That Boat Don't Float Discussion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by hooah212002, posted 03-10-2010 7:24 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
xXGEARXx
Member (Idle past 2440 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 89 of 115 (550297)
03-14-2010 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Taq
03-11-2010 10:57 AM


Re: Why even build an Ark?
The Noah myth is a blatant copy of the Babylonian flood story.

I thought the story of Noah came from the ancient Sumerian epic of Gilgamesh? Since Sumerian culture predates Noah's time and the flood story sounds dreadfully similar to noah's.

Then again, first the Sumerian then the Babylonian, right?

Edited by xXGEARXx, : No reason given.

Edited by xXGEARXx, : No reason given.

Edited by xXGEARXx, : No reason given.

Edited by xXGEARXx, : LOL! Finally figured out I forgot the first "s" to make a quote appear as a quote. ha ha!


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5609
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 90 of 115 (550310)
03-14-2010 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Manifest
03-06-2010 1:26 PM


Please define kind
Pay attention also that the verses are referring to kinds and not speciation which is a modern human classification system.

Do you have a definition for kind? No other creationists seems to have a definition that stands up to questioning.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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