AdminBen responds to me:
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Why is it inappropriate to point out when someone is lying?
Nobody said that. We said it's inappropriate to call someone a liar.
This doesn't answer the question. In fact, it raises a second question:
What is the difference between "That is a lie" and "You lied"? A lie is uttered by a person. You can use passive references all you want, but it is still the same meaning and intent.
Why is it inappropriate to point out when someone is lying? No, not merely mistaken. Not misinformed. Not of a different interpretational aspect. Lying.
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When the forum guidelines make a point of maintaining integrity, not misrepresenting things, etc., why is indicating that someone has violated those standards problematic?
It is OK to point out to a poster that he/she is re-using refuted arguments and to ask for them to address that.
This doesn't answer the question. This is not about honest mistakes. This is about dishonest behaviour.
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If no agreement can be made, then you have two options:
1. Drop it. Some things just aren't that important.
2. Contact the board administration. We can review the case, and take action on anybody who we find to be misrepresenting things
And how is one to do that if it is against the rules to point it out? Would you not agree that a lie is a misrepresentation? If it is inadmissible to point out a lie, then how is anybody to handle it?
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You pointed out reasons why a person might want to hesitate before accusing someone of lying, but you didn't say why such an accusation is bad if it can be substantiated.
NOWHERE in here is it necessary to call someone names. That goes for "lying" / "liar", "stupid", or anything else.
(*sigh*)
I feel like poor put-upon Miss Manners where the people who are violating ethics, morality, and etiquette have taken over and declared that those who point out their egregious behaviour are to be shunned for having the temerity to point it out.
If someone is lying, what would you suggest we do? Simply say, "Well, that's your opinion"? Isn't that another lie?
Are you saying it's OK to lie here? That the only response to lies is to ignore them or to spout more lies? It is inadmissible to point out that it is a lie?
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Substantiate the meaning behind the name.
A statement made knowingly in contradiction of established facts. That's a lie.
And you still haven't answered the question: Why is it bad?
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Show someone what you believe to be the facts and reasons behind the name.
No, not "believe." There is no "belief" here. The problem was not a matter of interpretation. The source proffered to justify the false claim actually proved it to be false. This is not a question of reasonable people agreeing to disagree. This is a clear indication of someone saying something that is untrue after having been shown that it was untrue and whose own sources indicate that it was untrue.
That's a lie. No other euphemism fits. There is no beating around the bush. A lie was told.
Why is pointing that out bad?
You haven't answered the question. All you have done is indicate that a person should hesitate before making such an accusation. That there are other possibilities for why someone might make a false claim other than lying.
But once it has been established that it is a lie, why are we treating it as something other than a lie? Why is recognizing it for the lie that it is a bad thing?
I rarely claim that people are lying. It is a serious claim. I understand that.
But why is it bad to point out a lie?
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Judging from your previous posts, you do this. Once you do this, calling names becomes superfluous.
How is pointing out a lie "name-calling"? Is a lie something other than a lie?
Why is it bad to point out a lie?
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It becomes simply inflammatory.
How is the truth inflammatory? Are you seriously saying that someone who violates the very point of the board needs to be coddled lest his feelings be hurt by someone pointing out that violation?
For crying out loud, it's on every page of this board! "Knowledge and Understanding through Discussion." When someone violates the spirit of that discussion by lying, how is it "inflammatory" to point it out? Isn't the one who violated the integrity and honesty of the board the one who is deserving of the claim "inflammatory"?
I'm reminded of the stupid (and yes, I chose that word deliberately) attitude of so many adults regarding children of, "I don't care who started it." Well, you should. The message you send by indicating such is that you don't care about context, intent, reason, or justification. You indicate that you think the world is black-and-white. You indicate that a person who stands up for himself will be punished. That doesn't mean that provocation is justification for any response. But it is imperative that you understand the process by which it happened or you betray the entire purpose.
Sometimes, outrageous behaviour is required.
Why is it bad to point out when someone is lying?
Or is it OK in this forum to lie?
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There's no need for inflammatory tactics here, and it won't be tolerated, no matter the form or reason.
Then, to put it bluntly, you have no business claiming to be an arbiter of the guidelines. You don't understand what they mean.
Do you seriously think that lying is respectful? Does it contribute to knowledge or understanding? Does it further discussion? Is it something other than a misrepresentation? Does it show respect to the other participants of this board?
To treat a lie as something other than a lie is to betray the very purpose of the board as stated in the motto and guidelines.
You're the moderator, though, so you get to decide. Please be honest about it, though, and admit that you condone the telling of lies here.
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Why is it against the rules to point out someone going against the rules?
Clearly a false dichotomy.
Isn't a lie a misrepresentation? Isn't stating misrepresentations against the rules?
So why is it against the rules to point out when someone has violated those rules?
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We're talking about calling someone a liar, not "pointing out someone is going against the rules."
But that's the entire point. Misrepresentations are against the rules. Lying is a misrepresentation, is it not? So why is it inappropriate to point out that someone lied?
Or is it OK to lie in this forum? Are lies not misrepresentations? We have the wonderful euphemism of "quote mining," but that's just what it is: A euphemism. It's just a categorization of a type of lie. Misquoting, creative editing, etc., they're all types of lies. But some lies are basic: The minority representation of Florida universities in 2001 when O'Reilly made his claim was 37%.
It wasn't. And it isn't a misquote of a statistic. It isn't sloppy research skills. It's a lie.
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As pointed out above, there's never a need to call someone a liar.
Even when they lie?
It's OK to post lies in this forum?
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We find name-calling to be inflammatory, unnecessary, and do not put up with it. STOP IT.
Why?
You haven't explained why.
Why is it inflammatory for a liar to be called on his lies? Isn't the liar the one that is causing the trouble?
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Are you so afraid of being questioned about your method of governance that you would "sanction" someone who dared to consider that perhaps you were overreaching?
Those who question, and are answered,
But you haven't answered. You've merely reiterated reasons why one should be careful before coming to the conclusion that a lie has been stated. You haven't given any reason why pointing out that it is a lie is bad. You've simply repeated the claim that it is. That, in and of itself, is a violation of the forum guidelines.
Guideline #2: Do not merely keep repeating the same points without further elaboration.
Why is it bad? How on earth is it inflammatory to point out that someone is inflaming the stated purpose of the group?
If someone were to come on here and say, "All niggers should be shot before they infect the purity of the white race," I seriously doubt you would whine if someone were to call that a "racist" comment. We don't seem to mind when posters point out sexism and call comments "sexist." How many times do we have to put up with the homophobic bullshit that wanders through here? And nobody seems to mind when it gets called out as "homophobic."
Why are lies somehow immune from being pointed out? We don't tolerate the above because they violate the point of maintaining respect for the others here, right?
How does lying maintain respect for the others here?
Or is lying OK in this forum?
I know...I keep asking that question over and over, but so far everybody has failed to answer it. Why is that? Why is it so hard to simply say a single word? "No." Or, if lying is OK here, "Yes." The fact that I have had no fewer than four different administrators avoid that question seems to me to be a huge indicator that lying is OK. You are free to lie and nobody will ever call you on it.
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but are unhappy with the answer and therefore continue the SAME line of questioning are open to board sanctions.
But you're the one repeating yourself.
When are you going to sanction yourself?
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Just to be crystal clear, this summary will act as your answer.
It didn't answer a single one of my questions. It merely reiterated the same non-responses the other moderators came up with.
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If you have genuine, straightforward questions about how to apply it, ask away.
Is lying OK on this forum?
Why is it bad to point out when someone is lying?
Those questions are genuine and straightforward.
So far four of you have responded and failed to even approach anything even remotely like an answer. The first question is the simplest of all. It requires no more than a single word response. And yet, every single one who has answered so far has decided to flee from it.
Why is it so difficult to answer? Is lying OK on this forum?
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If you don't like it and you ask bitchy, inflammatory questions about it, you're going to get suspended.
Define "bitchy." Since you have failed to answer my questions but have rather avoided them and took over 300 words to do so, I think I am entitled to a definition of just what is meant by "bitchy."
Is lying OK on this forum?
Why is it bad to point out when someone is lying?
To use an example I pointed out in the previous thread:
Suppose you're at a party and you're trying to stop your companion from going into the back room because you know it is off limits for this party. Would it be appropriate to shout out over the crowd, physically grapple him, and then frog march him out? No. I think it's safe to say that such would be over the top.
But suppose at the same party, you were to catch somebody pulling down his pants and pissing in the punch bowl. Would it still be "over the top" to shout out over the crowd, physically grapple him, and then frog march him out?
Do you not see how important context is? Do you not see that what justifies the outrageous response is the outrageous behaviour? That we understand that the person going into the back room might simply not know but that the person who is pissing in the punch bowl can't use that as an excuse?
So when somebody lies here, what are we to do? Aren't lies misrepresentations and aren't misrepresentations against the rules?
Isn't a lie an outrageous act on a forum dedicated to "Knowledge and Understanding through Discussion"?
This is no longer about whether or not truthlover told a lie. I don't care. This is about what to do when a person does lie. This is about whether or not it is OK to lie here. This is about why there is some concept that pointing out a lie to be a lie is somehow taboo and declared "inflammatory" as if the lie were of no consequence.
You need to explain why it is "inflammatory." Just saying that it is doesn't actually explain why. It is just saying, "It's bad because it's bad."
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!
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