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Author Topic:   A personal question
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 152 of 193 (20648)
10-23-2002 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Delshad
10-23-2002 5:29 PM


quote:
However , I dont despite the same sex relationships and who am I to stop them from doing what they want.
Im simply stating that man and woman relationships is the moral norm that leads society and deviations should be accepted but not embraced.
What makes homosexuality immoral?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Delshad, posted 10-23-2002 5:29 PM Delshad has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 153 of 193 (20650)
10-23-2002 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by gene90
10-23-2002 7:08 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
[QUOTE][B]Some? How about most. Christianity sees sex for pleasure as immoral.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
I disagree. If you're married, most don't care.

I dunno, Gene. Lots of Christianity-based sodomy laws out there which technically affect married couples as well as gay men.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by gene90, posted 10-23-2002 7:08 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by gene90, posted 10-24-2002 3:55 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 154 of 193 (20651)
10-23-2002 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by gene90
10-23-2002 7:18 PM


quote:
You said homosexuality was harmless. No sex is necessarily harmless.
Homosexuality is about much more than sex, Gene. It is no more or less about sex than heterosexuality.
(Wait a minute...I'm talking to a young man in his early twenties, and I am telling him that there is more to life than hormones...what am I thinking?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by gene90, posted 10-23-2002 7:18 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by gene90, posted 10-24-2002 3:54 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 155 of 193 (20652)
10-23-2002 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by nos482
10-23-2002 8:29 PM


quote:
Originally posted by nos482:
Originally posted by gene90:
I disagree. If you're married, most don't care.
Even in marriage if it wasn't for reproduction it was discouraged.

Coming from a Catholic background, I could tell you some things about what they told the young kids about contraception and other birth control, and about sex in general.
A lot of us (especially the girls) end up with terrible guilt and repressed sexual expression.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by nos482, posted 10-23-2002 8:29 PM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by nos482, posted 10-24-2002 8:21 AM nator has not replied
 Message 159 by gene90, posted 10-24-2002 3:52 PM nator has not replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 156 of 193 (20670)
10-24-2002 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by gene90
10-23-2002 3:38 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:

I have actually wondered this about all religions, and never reached a solution. Do parents have the right to teach their children their religious values? (I can hear lots of people recoiling in horror right now). The question is absurd, but I don't *really* know the answer. However, should I rear children, I'm sure you can all guess what religion they will first be exposed to...

As far as I am concerned, children should be taught how to think critically and how to reason properly and then allowed to choose their own path. Teaching a child your version of right from wrong is easier than teaching it how to reason right from wrong. Hell, many adults can't always tell you why they think something is wrong, it just is.
------------------
compmage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by gene90, posted 10-23-2002 3:38 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by gene90, posted 10-24-2002 3:50 PM compmage has not replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 193 (20687)
10-24-2002 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by nator
10-23-2002 11:11 PM


quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
quote:
Originally posted by nos482:
Originally posted by gene90:
I disagree. If you're married, most don't care.
Even in marriage if it wasn't for reproduction it was discouraged.

Coming from a Catholic background, I could tell you some things about what they told the young kids about contraception and other birth control, and about sex in general.
A lot of us (especially the girls) end up with terrible guilt and repressed sexual expression.

I remember, on another board, when this topic came up someone posted a set of guidelines from the 19th century for newlyweds on how the bride could avoid having sex with her new husband. It would have been quite funny if they weren't truly serious about it. I've been trying to find this list so I could post it here so you could see what I mean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by nator, posted 10-23-2002 11:11 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by gene90, posted 10-24-2002 5:25 PM nos482 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 158 of 193 (20725)
10-24-2002 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by compmage
10-24-2002 2:48 AM


I think parents should raise their children, not the government. That includes raising them however they want.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by compmage, posted 10-24-2002 2:48 AM compmage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by nos482, posted 10-24-2002 4:47 PM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 159 of 193 (20726)
10-24-2002 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by nator
10-23-2002 11:11 PM


[QUOTE][B]Coming from a Catholic background, I could tell you some things about what they told the young kids about contraception and other birth control, and about sex in general.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
I've seen Catholic fliers about contraception.
But the brutal fact of the matter is that frankly I don't care what the Catholic stance is, they don't speak for non-Catholics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by nator, posted 10-23-2002 11:11 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by nos482, posted 10-24-2002 4:49 PM gene90 has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 160 of 193 (20727)
10-24-2002 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by nator
10-23-2002 11:09 PM


[QUOTE][B](Wait a minute...I'm talking to a young man in his early twenties, and I am telling him that there is more to life than hormones...what am I thinking?)[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Hey Schraf, how much LOWER do you intend to stoop? True I had respect for you but a few more remarks like that and it's going to be flying out the window.
Maybe you should run along and start harrassing someone else over their personal beliefs and their age...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by nator, posted 10-23-2002 11:09 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by nator, posted 10-24-2002 11:05 PM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 161 of 193 (20728)
10-24-2002 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by nator
10-23-2002 11:06 PM


[QUOTE][B]Lots of Christianity-based sodomy laws out there which technically affect married couples as well as gay men.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
I don't think the government has a right to pass laws about sexual practices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by nator, posted 10-23-2002 11:06 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by nator, posted 10-24-2002 11:07 PM gene90 has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 193 (20729)
10-24-2002 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by gene90
10-23-2002 7:18 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
But if the sexes were created for a reason by a creator, don't you think that giving in to the temptation to go after the wrong sex is contrary to the will of the creator?
I might be able to answer that if I knew the will of this hypothetical creator. He/she/it could have built homosexuality into the creation. Perhaps this creator had more in mind than reproduction when he/she/it invented orgasm.
quote:
You said homosexuality was harmless. No sex is necessarily harmless.
Actually, if I recall correctly, I said "not that harmful"
quote:
Then what right has Schrafinator to attack the LDS church for women and the priesthood or her interpretation of the president's commentary on homosexuality?
The same right you have to accept it and to defend it.
Morality is subjective. This isn't the same as saying that ideas and behavior are beyond criticism. Debate is how we learn things. It may be slow and painful but it the best we've got.
quote:
That was meant rhetorically. I presuppose, and unless you consider that position my version of morality will make no sense to you.
I understand your version, Gene. It is all around me. And it makes no sense. It is a worldview based on nothing. Why base a worldview on not one shred of evidence? The logic involved is the same logic you yourself criticise when dealing with creationists.
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by gene90, posted 10-23-2002 7:18 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by gene90, posted 10-24-2002 5:09 PM John has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 193 (20731)
10-24-2002 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by gene90
10-24-2002 3:50 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
I think parents should raise their children, not the government. That includes raising them however they want.
What if the family believes that siblings should marry to "keep the bloodline pure"? Incest is a problem. Just recently there was a major kiddie porn ring broken up and many of the children were being used by their very own parents. Are you saying that this is ok and the law shouldn't have interfered in them rasing their children their way?
[This message has been edited by nos482, 10-24-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by gene90, posted 10-24-2002 3:50 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by gene90, posted 10-24-2002 5:11 PM nos482 has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 193 (20732)
10-24-2002 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by gene90
10-24-2002 3:52 PM


Originally posted by gene90:
I've seen Catholic fliers about contraception.
But the brutal fact of the matter is that frankly I don't care what the Catholic stance is, they don't speak for non-Catholics.
But they do speak for the vast majority of Christians since most Christians are RC.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by gene90, posted 10-24-2002 3:52 PM gene90 has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 166 of 193 (20733)
10-24-2002 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by nator
10-23-2002 10:40 PM


[QUOTE][B]I already addressed your war analogy.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Then see the hazing/initiation analogy.
[QUOTE][B]I said that the bonds of war happen because people are coming together to fight a common foe, not simply because shooting occurs.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
So your position is that if people in war weren't getting killed those bonds would be just as strong?
[QUOTE][B]So, are you saying that your morals are relatively arbitrary[/QUOTE]
[/B]
All morals are arbitrary because everyone at some point decides their own.
[QUOTE][B]and even though you think that homosexuality doesn't harm anyone, it is still immoral, because the Bible says so?
Then I would say that your position lacks reason.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
That's fine for your personal opinion but what basis do you have that my position lacks reason because (you assume) that it is based upon the Bible? How are your atheistic morals any better than my theistic morals? You're also begging the question when you simply equate Bible = lack of reason.
(And incidentally, I haven't even read the Bible for this moral perspective. Does that make it any difference? Because I think my moral values are correct, and I think the reason is obvious...so obvious in fact I don't *need* scriptures for it)
[QUOTE][B]no matter how illogical and unreasonable it is?[/QUOTE]
[/B]
We'll discuss that after you prove it is "illogical" and "unreasonable".
[QUOTE][B]I certainly did. [/QUOTE]
[/B]
Yeah but that doesn't surprise. After all, you clearly have an axe to grind. I've seen evidence of that time and again.
[QUOTE][B] (Homophobia might be too strong a word for your views, I'm not sure.)[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Yet another cheap shot.
Again, I ask the question: how low are you going to stoop?
I have another question: is the rest of this post even worth responding to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by nator, posted 10-23-2002 10:40 PM nator has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 167 of 193 (20734)
10-24-2002 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by John
10-24-2002 4:16 PM


[QUOTE][B]Actually, if I recall correctly, I said "not that harmful"[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Actually what you said in Post 115 of this thread was:
[QUOTE][B] Homosexuality could be due to the extreme similarity of the sexes. It could be that it provides some positive social bonding. It could be that it simply isn't harmful.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Which is patently false. Sex, whether hetero or homo, can very well be harmful.
[QUOTE][B]The same right you have to accept it and to defend it.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
So then do you have a right to harrass Mormons on the street? Or wouldn't that be religious intolerance? Would you drive up to a gas station, and if you saw a Christian fish on a vehicle there, confront the driver about his religious preferences and tell him about how unreasonable he is?
[QUOTE][B]Morality is subjective.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Then what right have you to criticize my moral values?
[QUOTE][B]And it makes no sense. It is a worldview based on nothing.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Only if you presuppose there is no God, just as I presuppose there is.
[QUOTE][B]The logic involved is the same logic you yourself criticise when dealing with creationists.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
The logic I criticize dealing with Creationists is the same logic I criticize coming from atheists, only they push different ideaologies with it. I've debated both, and the arguments are often almost identical.
"There's no transitional fossils!"
"There's no evidence of God!"
[This message has been edited by gene90, 10-24-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by John, posted 10-24-2002 4:16 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by nos482, posted 10-24-2002 6:54 PM gene90 has not replied
 Message 176 by John, posted 10-25-2002 11:57 AM gene90 has replied

  
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