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Author Topic:   Human Intelligence
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 1 of 193 (82556)
02-03-2004 10:54 AM


From another thread:
Skeptick writes:
Is human consciousness the result of a long string of random accidents?

Common sense isn't

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Dr Jack, posted 02-03-2004 10:59 AM NosyNed has not replied
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 2 of 193 (82558)
02-03-2004 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by NosyNed
02-03-2004 10:54 AM


Skeptick asked me other on the other thread:
I see. Two quick questions: Is evolution a string of events that are random or designed?
Neither. Evolution works by a mixture of deterministic and random processes.
Is evolution accidental or intentional?
Evolution is accidental in the philosophical sense. I don't think the question makes any sense for any other sense of the word 'accidental'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by NosyNed, posted 02-03-2004 10:54 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Skeptick, posted 02-03-2004 11:16 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
Skeptick
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 193 (82562)
02-03-2004 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Dr Jack
02-03-2004 10:59 AM


Evolution is accidental in the philosophical sense.
That answer certainly dodged my question. Ok, I'll play. If it's "accidental in a philosophical sense", is it also accidental in a "factual" sense?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Dr Jack, posted 02-03-2004 10:59 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 02-03-2004 11:21 AM Skeptick has not replied
 Message 5 by kjsimons, posted 02-03-2004 11:22 AM Skeptick has replied
 Message 6 by Dr Jack, posted 02-03-2004 11:30 AM Skeptick has not replied
 Message 11 by Yaro, posted 02-03-2004 1:37 PM Skeptick has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 4 of 193 (82564)
02-03-2004 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Skeptick
02-03-2004 11:16 AM


I would say that he did answer your question.
And if by "factual" you mean "common usage" then the answer is "no" - which is why the answer specifies that he is using an unusual meaning (the "Philosophical sense") of "accident.

This message is a reply to:
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kjsimons
Member
Posts: 821
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 5 of 193 (82565)
02-03-2004 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Skeptick
02-03-2004 11:16 AM


I see. Two quick questions: Is evolution a string of events that are random or designed? Is evolution accidental or intentional?
These questions are along the line of "When did you stop beating your wife?". In other words, false dichotomies. The events that lead to us are not all random and were probably not designed, but there are other type of events than just those two.
Mutations could be considered random events, but natural selection on those mutations is not random and is most certainly not designed. A mutation that is neutral or that aids the organism so that it can pass on more of it's genetic material to the next generation will be selected for.
Some processes of evolution are "accidental" but I wouldn't characterize all of evolution that way. Evolution as a process has no master plan or purpose so I would say evolution is not intentional.
Just my two cents worth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Skeptick, posted 02-03-2004 11:16 AM Skeptick has replied

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 6 of 193 (82566)
02-03-2004 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Skeptick
02-03-2004 11:16 AM


That answer certainly dodged my question. Ok, I'll play. If it's "accidental in a philosophical sense", is it also accidental in a "factual" sense?
I'm not playing games here.
How can it be described as 'accidental' if not in the philisophical sense? What would that 'accidental' mean?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Skeptick, posted 02-03-2004 11:16 AM Skeptick has not replied

  
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3775 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 7 of 193 (82583)
02-03-2004 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by NosyNed
02-03-2004 10:54 AM


Ok, hopefully this is in-line to what I think the question was pertaining to. I personally like the theory that human intelligence (I wonder if there is such a thing sometimes?) came about because of climatic change. That these selective pressures throughout our past forced us into being generalists. The route we took in our evolution as generalists was toward a larger brain. This larger brain allowing us to adapt to changing environments and take advantage of various niches. The fact that we have such a large control over our environment is just a by product of this evolution. That our social constructions have allowed us to create large relatively stable social groups that have increased our reproductive fitness. Elizabeth Vrba and Rick Potts are two anthropologists that come to my mind who describe something along these lines. If you get a chance read: Humanity's Descent: The consequence of Ecological Instability. by Rick Potts. 1996. Avon Books.
ps. haven't checked it out yet but i just noticed that they have a website listed on the copyright page. AvonBooks.com
I appologise beforehand if this wasn't comprhensive enough. Quick answers aren't always the best.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 8 of 193 (82598)
02-03-2004 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by NosyNed
02-03-2004 10:54 AM


Is human consciousness the result of a long string of random accidents?
I feel comfortable concluding that it's the result of language, actually.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by NosyNed, posted 02-03-2004 10:54 AM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 02-12-2004 11:11 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Skeptick
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 193 (82608)
02-03-2004 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by kjsimons
02-03-2004 11:22 AM


These questions are along the line of "When did you stop beating your wife?"...
I don't see how you arrived at that. It's a good argument, but it doesn't apply here.
Mutations could be considered random events, but natural selection on those mutations is not random and is most certainly not designed. A mutation that is neutral or that aids the organism so that it can pass on more of it's genetic material to the next generation will be selected for.
Ok, so now you're dodging me too. Ok, I'll play. Instead of full blown evolution, let's talk your terms: Mutations. This only leads me to ask the same basic question again: Are mutations accidental or intentional? Did the mutation happen by itself? Or if the mutation was "caused", what was the "effect"?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2004 1:32 PM Skeptick has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 10 of 193 (82610)
02-03-2004 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Skeptick
02-03-2004 1:25 PM


Are mutations accidental or intentional?
I think we all can agree that a specific mutation is accidental - say, the change of a base from T to A - but that mutations in general are inevitable.
The direction that evolution takes is accidental, yes. That evolution will take a direction is guaranteed. I think that's all we're trying to say, maybe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Skeptick, posted 02-03-2004 1:25 PM Skeptick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Skeptick, posted 02-03-2004 2:47 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6495 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 11 of 193 (82613)
02-03-2004 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Skeptick
02-03-2004 11:16 AM


Skeptic,
The term accident is a human term, it don't exist in reality. Everythng is just a long stream of cause and effect. Nothing happens for a "purpose" or "no-purpose", these are mearly human values applied to occurances we percive.
Everything is the result of a cause, things knocking in to each other etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Skeptick, posted 02-03-2004 11:16 AM Skeptick has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 16 by :æ:, posted 02-03-2004 2:59 PM Yaro has replied

  
Skeptick
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 193 (82635)
02-03-2004 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Yaro
02-03-2004 1:37 PM


The term accident is a human term, it don't exist in reality. Everythng is just a long stream of cause and effect. Nothing happens for a "purpose" or "no-purpose", these are mearly human values applied to occurances we percive.
All terms are human; does anything exist at all? If a tree falls in the forest.... does it make a sound? To pursue this, we would need to start a topic about Clinton-speak (...that depends on what the word "is" is....)
But to your comment that is more in line with this topic:
Everything is the result of a cause, things knocking in to each other etc.
You are so right. But what caused the cause? And the cause before that? Maybe we're asking "where did it all begin?" Where did the energy orignate that caused the first "thing" to build up speed to "knock" into another "thing"? Maybe we're asking where did the "superatom" come from? Or the energy to make it spin? Or explode? Or where did God come from? Who made God? Where did God get his energy? What is the real purpose of our question here?
[This message has been edited by Skeptick, 02-03-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Yaro, posted 02-03-2004 1:37 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Loudmouth, posted 02-03-2004 2:50 PM Skeptick has replied
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 Message 22 by Yaro, posted 02-03-2004 5:15 PM Skeptick has replied

  
Skeptick
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 193 (82642)
02-03-2004 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
02-03-2004 1:32 PM


The direction that evolution takes is accidental, yes. That evolution will take a direction is guaranteed. I think that's all we're trying to say, maybe.
Thank you giving a direct answer to the question. So, life is the end result of an event or events that were set into motion by accident?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2004 1:32 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2004 3:04 PM Skeptick has replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 193 (82645)
02-03-2004 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Skeptick
02-03-2004 2:40 PM


quote:
All terms are human; does anything exist at all? If a tree falls in the forest.... does it make a sound? To pursue this, we would need to start a topic about Clinton-speak (...that depends on what the word "is" is....)
What humans call an accident is something that goes against what a human would predict. Sometimes "accident" is related to a mistake, such as a car accident. In nature, the closest thing to "accident" that you get is a statistically random phenomenom, which applies to mutational events. However, those mutations are then selected for, which is not an accident with respect to random distributions. Selection causes non-random distributions, the opposite of accident.
quote:
You are so right. But what caused the cause? And the cause before that? Maybe we're asking "where did it all begin?" Where did the energy orignate that caused the first "thing" to build up speed to "knock" into another "thing"? Maybe we're asking where did the "superatom" come from? Or the energy to make it spin? Or explode? Or where did God come from? Who made God? Where did God get his energy? What is the real purpose of our question here?
Evolution has nothing to do with origins. For example, we don't time how long it takes a sprinter to get to the starting line, the real race starts at the gun. Evolution's starting gun is the first replicator, thats it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Skeptick, posted 02-03-2004 2:40 PM Skeptick has replied

Replies to this message:
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Skeptick
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 193 (82650)
02-03-2004 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Loudmouth
02-03-2004 2:50 PM


What humans call an accident is something that goes against what a human would predict. Sometimes "accident" is related to a mistake, such as a car accident. In nature, the closest thing to "accident" that you get is a statistically random phenomenom, which applies to mutational events. However, those mutations are then selected for, which is not an accident with respect to random distributions. Selection causes non-random distributions, the opposite of accident.
If it rained on the rocks for millions of years, then one day lightning struck the ground (or the water, or whatever) and suddenly there was a living microbe, would you consider the living microbe to be the intentional result of a "cause"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Loudmouth, posted 02-03-2004 2:50 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Loudmouth, posted 02-03-2004 3:14 PM Skeptick has replied

  
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