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Author Topic:   Miocene humans
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6524 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 16 of 89 (230529)
08-06-2005 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by randman
08-06-2005 5:07 PM


Re: An aside
The subtopic said "An Aside". It meant An Aside.
This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-06-2005 05:12 PM

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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6524 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 17 of 89 (230558)
08-06-2005 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Yaro
08-06-2005 5:10 PM


Cremo Of The Crapo
Another one of this fine scientists books:
Divine Nature
by Michael A. Cremo and
Mukunda Goswami
According to Divine Nature, the real cause of the global environmental crisis is an underlying lack of spiritual understanding. The authors systematically demonstrate that most proposed solutions are only palliative and that humankind must undergo a profound change in consciousness to live in an environmentally sound way.
Also, an entertaining interview: http://www.biped.info/articles/cremo.html
An excerpt:
Michael, your books, Forbidden Archeology and Hidden History of the Human Race, co-written with Richard L. Thompson, presented the thesis that mankind is an exceedingly ancient race which was contemporaneous with the apelike creatures from which humans supposedly evolved. About how far back was your research able to document the human race? What is the oldest "anomaly" you reported in your book?
The oldest artifacts go back about 2 billion years. These are round metallic objects that have been over the past couple of decades by miners in South Africa. The objects come from a mine near a place called Ottosdalin, in the West Transvaal region. The objects are one or two inches in diameter. The ones we had analyzed by metallurgists turned out to be made of an iron ore called hematite. The most interesting feature of the objects is the parallel grooves that go around the center of each one. Some have four grooves, some three, some two, some only one. The metallurgists who examined them said they were not produced naturally. Therefore, the objects must have been manufactured by someone with humanlike intelligence. Yet they are found solidly embedded in mineral deposits over 2 billion years old.
This guy seems to be real respectable
This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-06-2005 06:26 PM

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 18 of 89 (230582)
08-06-2005 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Yaro
08-06-2005 6:26 PM


Re: Cremo Of The Crapo
Much more than most evos, I dare say.
Thus far, I cannot find any factual errors in his work.

This message is a reply to:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 19 of 89 (230585)
08-06-2005 8:15 PM


here's a claim
Maybe some evos here could practice showing their explanations for the data as superiour. This is claim made elsewhere, and I am sure evos have an explanation they feel is superiour.
This could be a useful exercise turning the thread to the data instead of specious arguments trying to dismiss someone out of hand. Keep in mind that I have chosen a claim that is common, that evos, I believe, claim to be able to easily dismiss.
Among the oldest anomalies you report are the Laetoli footprints, discovered by Mary Leakey. These footprints were found in Tanzania in 1979. How old are these footprints and what is so anomalous about them? Is there any other evidence for anatomically modern humans at this same time?
The Laetoli footprints were found in layers of solidified volcanic ash, dated by the potassium-argon method as being about 3.7 million years old, so I would not call them one of the oldest. There are footprints and even shoe prints that go much further back in time than that. For example, the shoe print found by William Meister near Antelope Springs, Utah, goes back about 500 million years. The Laetoli footprints are still quite interesting. According to Mary Leakey, and other scientists, the footprints are exactly like those of modern human beings. This is unusual, because according to most scientists today, human beings capable of making these footprints did not come into existence until about 100,000 years ago. Mary Leakey did not believe, of course, that humans of our type existed 3.7 million years ago in Africa.
So how did she explain the footprints?
She and others proposed that there must have existed at that time some kind of hominid, some kind of ape-man, who had feet exactly like ours. That is possible. Unfortunately, there is no physical evidence to support that idea. We have many hominid skeletons from that period, and none of them have feet exactly like modern human feet. Their feet are all more or less apelike, with toes longer than modern human toes, and a first toe that can extend out to the side, like a human thumb. At present the only creature known to science with a foot exactly like that of a modern human being is a modern human being. So I would say that Mary Leakey discovered evidence that anatomically modern humans existed about 3.7 million years ago in Africa. Of course, someone might say that it would be better if we had anatomically modern human skeletons of that age. And such things do exist. For example, the Italian geologist Giuseppe Ragazzoni discovered anatomically modern human skeletal remains in Pliocene formations at a place called Castenedolo in northern Italy. The Pliocene goes from about 2 million years ago to 5 million years ago. And there are other such discoveries from other parts of the world.
I'm particularly intrigued by the bola stones of Olduvai Gorge and Argentina. What do these stones tell us, that is, what were they used for and how are they incompatible with the current Darwinian paradigm of human evolution?
Bola stones are stones that have been artificially rounded, and which many times also have a groove carved around the middle. The rounded, grooved stones are tied together with a thong, usually of leather. The result is the bola, a weapon that can be used to capture birds and animals. When thrown, the stone balls cause the thong to wrap tightly around the legs of the bird or animal, thus bringing it down. According to archeologists, bolas are a weapon made and used only by anatomically modern humans, humans of our kind. So Louis Leakey found bola stones in the lower levels of Olduvai Gorge, which go back to the Pliocene periods (2-5 million years). Leakey also found there a bone needle, which he believed was used for sewing leather. At Miramar, in Argentina, the Argentine archeologist Carlos Ameghino reported finding bola stones in undisturbed Pliocene formations, about 3 million years old. In the same layer, he also discovered the bone of an extinct South American mammal with a flint arrowhead embedded in it. Still later, another researcher found a partial human jaw in the same formation. According to the current Darwinian theory of human evolution, humans capable of making bola stones and arrowheads and bone needles did not exist until between 100,000 and 150,000 years ago.
http://www.biped.info/articles/cremo.html

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 20 of 89 (230586)
08-06-2005 8:20 PM


fundamentalist Darwinists?
Apparently, some Darwinists have given this "crackpot" a warm reception and admitted his data is impressive. The fundies (Darwinian fundies) just dismiss it with a waive of the hand, and don't address any of the data.
To be fair, he also states fundamentalist Christians have not been very receptive either.
The reaction you received from the scientific community when Forbidden Archeology was published was incredible enough to warrant the publication of your book, Forbidden Archeology's Impact. How would you characterize the response?
The response was varied, because the scientific community is not monolithic. There is one group within the scientific community that I call the fundamentalist Darwinists. These are scientists who take Darwinism as an ideology to be defended at all costs. They are attached to Darwinism for reasons that are not really scientific. Their reaction was to reject my work without really addressing any of the evidence. For example, Richard Leakey said Forbidden Archeology was "pure humbug." But he did not discuss any of the facts. However, there are others within the scientific community who accept the Darwinist theory of human evolution for reasons that are more or less scientific. They are at least willing to hear alternative ideas and discuss evidence. From members of this group I have gotten invitations to speak at scientific institutions like the Royal Institution of London and the Russian Academy of Sciences, and at professional conferences organized by groups such as the World Archeological Congress and the European Association of Archeologists.
Some of the papers I have presented at these conferences have been published in the official proceedings of these conferences. Scientists from this more open-minded group have also reviewed my books in the professional journals of archeology, anthropology and the history of science. For example, noted historian of science David Oldroyd and his coauthor Jo Wodak said about Forbidden Archeology in Social Studies of Science that the book makes a valuable contribution to the literature on paleoanthropology for two reasons. First, the book goes into the evidence in greater depth than any other book they were familiar with, and second, the book raised important questions about the nature of scientific truth claims, particularly in regard to human evolution. Among this more open-minded group, there are some scientists who have actually come to agree with my conclusions.
Were you surprised by the reaction from the Darwinist camp?
As I said, there are two kinds of Darwinists. The first is the fundamentalist type. I was not surprised by their sneering kind of negative reaction. I anticipated that, and indeed, I used some of their more strident statements to get more attention for my work, both within the scientific world and among the general public. I was rather pleasantly surprised by the willingness of the more open-minded Darwinists to give me platforms to present my views at scientific societies, scientific conferences, and science departments at universities around the world. I was also pleasantly surprised by the amount of attention they gave to my work in book reviews in their professional literature.
http://www.biped.info/articles/cremo.html

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Yaro, posted 08-06-2005 8:59 PM randman has replied
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 08-07-2005 8:43 AM randman has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6524 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 21 of 89 (230593)
08-06-2005 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by randman
08-06-2005 8:20 PM


Re: fundamentalist Darwinists?
Hidden History, Hidden Agenda
Some excerpts:
The work is frustrating because it mixes together a genuine contribution to our understanding of the history of archaeology and paleoanthropology with a bewildering mass of absurd claims and an audaciously distorted review of the current state of paleoanthropology.
...
Cremo and Thompson have little understanding of history and almost no understanding of the disciplines of paleoanthropology and archaeology. In the introduction, Thompson is identified as a generic "scientist" and "a mathematician," while Cremo is "a writer and editor for books and magazines published by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust" (p. xix). Their naive approach to history is revealed in their discussion of the alleged discovery of broken columns, "coins, handles of hammers, and other tools" quarried from limestone in France between 1786 and 1788 (p. 104). In order to establish the credibility of this report they note that it was published in the American Journal of Science in 1820. They attempt to support their charge that modern scientists are dogmatic by observing that "today, however, it is unlikely such a report would be found in the pages of a scientific journal" (p. 104). The American Journal of Science in the 1820s published many reports that would not be found in modern science journals. Mermaids (Shillaber 1823), sea serpents (American Journal of Science and Arts, 1826), and the efficacy of divining rods for locating water (Emerson, 1821) were topics of interest to scientists of that era. That such material was presented in a 19th century journal with "Science" in the title is no measure of its reliability or its relevance to modern science; likewise, that modern marine biologists no longer consider mermaids a worthy subject for research is no measure of their dogmatism. Cremo and Thompson might disagree, however, for they devote an entire chapter to reports of "living ape-men" such as Bigfoot, which, even if true, contribute nothing to their thesis that anatomically modern humans lived in geologically ancient times. Chimpanzees are "ape-men" of a sort, sharing 99% of our genetic makeup, and their coexistence with Homo sapiens sapiens does no violence to evolutionary theory.
...
Cremo and Thompson's ignorance of the basic data of archaeology is exemplified by their reference to the Venus of Willendorf as a work of "Neolithic" rather than Paleolithic art (p. 84) and their mistaken identification of a nondescript stone blade from Sandia Cave as a "Folsom point" (p. 93).
...
Cremo and Thompson's claim that anatomically modern Homo sapiens sapiens have been around for hundreds of millions of years is an outrageous notion. Accepting that there is a place in science for seemingly outrageous hypotheses (cf. Davis, 1926) there is no justification for the sort of sloppy rehashing of canards, hoaxes, red herrings, half-truths and fantasies Cremo and Thompson offer in the service of a religious ideology. Readers who are interested in a more credible presentation of the overwhelming evidence for human evolution should consult Ian Tattersall's wonderful recent book The Fossil Trail: how we know what we think we know about human evolution.
This article is from skeptic magazine:
This review was previously published in Skeptic by the Skeptics Society, Vol 4, No 1, pp 98-100, 1996. Many thanks to Michael Shermer of the Skeptics Society for making it available.
This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-06-2005 09:00 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by randman, posted 08-06-2005 8:20 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by randman, posted 08-07-2005 2:48 PM Yaro has replied

  
wj
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 89 (230648)
08-07-2005 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
08-06-2005 1:31 AM


Forbidden archaeology review
Randman seems to find great credence in Cremo and Thompson and their heavy reliance on fossil finds of 100 or more years ago and the evaluation of the material at that time. Presumably this material was included in the large volume of Forbidden Archaeology by Cremo and Thompson.
Here is a review of that book by Colin Groves. Below is an extract which explains why Cremo and Thompson and consequentially randman have to rely on supposed anomolous human fossils found 100 or more years ago and cannot cite modern occurances:
quote:
The fossil and archaeological evidence for human and cultural evolution is not all of consistently high quality. In the nineteenth century, human remains and artefacts were usually found by accident and by amateurs; they would be dug up, removed from context, and presented with a flourish to the nearest "expert". Controlled excavation was not a widely practised are; photography of a find in situ was an unusual occurrence. The finds' stratigraphy was often vague in the extreme; those re-examining their significance in later times had to rely on the fading memories of untrained workmen who had been enlisted by the finder.
This state of affairs improved as archaeology and palaeontology developed, and contextual information came to be recognised as crucial. Today, accidental discoveries are rarities; usually specimens turn up because someone has an idea where to look, given the prevailing geology and landscape, and an excavation is mounted with all kinds of specialists - geomorphologists, geochemists, taphonomists, above all photographers - riding along to ensure that everything about the site and its contents is recorded.
Of course the fanatical anti-evolutionist is likely to bleat about ignorant scientists, duped scientists brainwashed by propaganda or conspiracies. Reality doesn't support those delusions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by randman, posted 08-06-2005 1:31 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22502
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 23 of 89 (230658)
08-07-2005 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by randman
08-06-2005 8:20 PM


Re: fundamentalist Darwinists?
I still think my earlier question is the one most relevant to this thread. Your material appeared to fit right in with the rest of the material at those websites. By what criteria do you judge it credible? For you, what differentiates it from the rest of the dross it's always associated with?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by randman, posted 08-06-2005 8:20 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 24 of 89 (230707)
08-07-2005 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Yaro
08-06-2005 8:59 PM


Re: fundamentalist Darwinists?
Talkorigins is like MoveOn.org or the Democratic Underground. It's so off-base, imo, that it's not even funny, a total attack and propaganda site.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Yaro, posted 08-06-2005 8:59 PM Yaro has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 25 of 89 (230708)
08-07-2005 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by wj
08-07-2005 7:08 AM


Re: Forbidden archaeology review
Well, the fact Cremo mentions artifacts not dug up by amateurs blows that critique right out of the water.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 26 of 89 (230710)
08-07-2005 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
08-07-2005 8:43 AM


Re: fundamentalist Darwinists?
Percy, I have only a few minutes before I've got to go, but wanted to respond to your question.
I think the fact he has been invited, and well-received, to speak at scientific conferences says a lot. It's true that that alone does not verify his credentials or anything, but by all accounts he and the other writer have compiled an impressive amount of data, not easily dismissed, and some of it extremely well-documented by the peer-review process at the time.
But it's not like I've checked into all of this myself. It just appears his work is of a high degree of scholarship, and his detractors are taking potshots at the guy because he belongs to a weird religion.
I'd like to see evos take on the evidence and data, and too often what Cremo says about the process does seem to be true, or at least it has appeared that way to me. It's almost like some evolutionists are in a defend at all costs mode.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 08-07-2005 8:43 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Yaro, posted 08-07-2005 3:01 PM randman has replied
 Message 31 by Percy, posted 08-07-2005 6:11 PM randman has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6524 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 27 of 89 (230712)
08-07-2005 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by randman
08-07-2005 2:55 PM


Re: fundamentalist Darwinists?
One easy one off the bat, why is most of the stuff over 100 years old?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by randman, posted 08-07-2005 2:55 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6524 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 28 of 89 (230713)
08-07-2005 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by randman
08-07-2005 2:48 PM


Re: fundamentalist Darwinists?
The article I quoted you was from skeptic magazine, not talkorigins. Skeptic magazine is edited by Michael Shermer (an editor for scientific american). The magazine deals with debunking psudoscience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by randman, posted 08-07-2005 2:48 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 29 of 89 (230745)
08-07-2005 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Yaro
08-07-2005 3:03 PM


Re: fundamentalist Darwinists?
Yaro, you ought to read the stuff you link to sometimes.
Cremo and Thompson are quite right about the extreme conservatism of many archaeologists and physical anthropologists. While an undergraduate at a prominent southwestern university, I participated in classroom discussions about the claims for a very early occupation at the Timlin site (in New York) which had just been announced. The professor surprised me when she stated flatly that, if the dates were correct, then it was "obviously not a site." This dismissal of the possibility of such an ancient site, without an examination of the data or even a careful reading of the published claim, is dogmatism of the sort rightfully decried by Cremo and Thompson. George Carter, the late Thomas Lee, and Virginia Steene-McIntyre are among those whose claims for very early humans in America have been met with unfortunate ad hominem attacks by some conservative archaeologists; but, regardless of how shamefully these scholars were treated, the fact remains that their claims have not been supported by sufficiently compelling evidence. Cremo and Thompson are wrong, however, when they condemn scientists for demanding "higher levels of proof for anomalous finds than for evidence that fits within the established ideas about human evolution" (p. 49). It is axiomatic that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.
Hidden History, Hidden Agenda
In other words, there is indeed factual evidence of ancient sites of human existence. Cremo and Thompson are correct, but the writer, despite witnessing first-hand the scientific bigotry excluding honest apprisal of such data, nevertheless defends mainstream evolutionist dogmatism by admitting "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence", which seems to me another way of saying exactlt what Cremo and Thompson say, that there is a "knowledge filter" due to the assumptions of evolutionists which causes them to dismiss claims that don't fit their paradigm (because they are extraordinary).
One wonders then, after reading this, what sort of extraordinary evidence would be acceptable, or even could theoritically be acceptable? If ancient sites, clearly visible in strata considered to be millions of years old, are not extraordinary evidence, then it may well be there is no way to falsify evolutionary models of human origins because the evidence will just be denied and swept under the rug.
Yaro, contrary to what you claim, reading your link with an open-mind, causes one to think Cremo is actually on-track, and his claims credible, considering the fact the writer admits, in a backhanded way, to the most basic claims of Cremo and Thompson, even while denying they have a proper understanding.
Go back and read the link, as if you were not predisposed to reject the evidence, and then tell me honestly what you think.
For example, the writer makes the same kind of overstepping analysis he claims Cremo and Thompson do. He lays out some, on the surface at least, fairly powerful arguments blasting some of, and I repeat some of, Cremo's work, but then he seems to run out of ammo, and makes this comment.
Cremo and Thompson discuss the three to four million year old fossilized footprints discovered at Laetoli, and note that scholars have observed "close similarities with the anatomy of the feet of modern humans" (p. 262). Cremo and Thompson conclude that these footprints actually are the tracks of anatomically modern humans, but they offer no explanation for why these individuals were not wearing the shoes which supposedly had been invented more than 296 million years earlier.
Obviously he is stretching matters. Just because shoes were invented theoritically is no justification for demanding a foot-print be a shoe print, especially if it were deep mud or something.
What an absurdity! My wife, kids, and I love to go barefoot in the summer, and it is well known that just a few decades ago, people in some areas didn't have that many shoes.
The writer betrays his over-reaching prejudice in his criticism, and imo, therefore provides the objective reader good reason to consider that Cremo and Thompson's claims have some merit. Keep in mind just one instance of human remains and artifacts from many millions of years ago is falsification of ToE claims on human origins.
I don't doubt the researchers have some claims, considering the number of them, that are incorrect. They appeared to have compiled quite a list, but at the same time, both the quality and numbers suggest evolutionists have been remiss, and are dismissing data that does not fit well with their theory, and rather than adjust the theory, they adjust the data.
This message has been edited by randman, 08-07-2005 05:37 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Yaro, posted 08-07-2005 3:03 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 30 of 89 (230750)
08-07-2005 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Yaro
08-07-2005 3:01 PM


Re: fundamentalist Darwinists?
Yaro, what he is showing is that prior to the "knowledge filter" of evolutionism which dismisses all data of ancient human origins, it was quite common to find remains dated from millions of years ago, and though he lists some finds, to illustrate the magnitude of his point, that are not as well-researched and determined, he also lists finds by very credible scientists and researched and verified by scientists at the time.
He also pin-points the exact time such data began to be dismissed, and it has to do with the rise of evolutionism and the discovery of Java man. In doing so, he convincingly, it appears, demonstrates that the data was never refuted but simply filtered out because it did not fit into prevailing paradigms.
The likely conclusion is that the data is right, and the paradigm is wrong, but evolutionists don't like to deal with this data because they have yet to develop a paradigm to explain ancient humans.
In a way, this reminds me of the concept of Pangea or a single land mass. As a very young child, it seemed obvious to me that the continents were once joined, especially Africa and Americas, but despite a lot of evidence, scientists erroneously scoffed at such ideas.
The claim is they did so justifiably because until the discovery of plate tectonics, they had no mechanism or theory as to why.
But this begs the question? If scientists are in the habit of dismissing data until it can be fully explained, and asserting a false claim inconsistent with that data, then to my mind, this casts great doubt on the claims of scientists in natural earth areas.
The thinking person would do well, imo, to consider that it appears evos are in the habit of filtering out data, maintaining false claims, just because they have yet to find a better one, and they call that real science.
If that's real science, then we should all treat such scientific claims as highly dubious, and reject the dogmatism of evos as grossly unsubstantiated.
Would it not be better to admit to all of the data, and admit no paradigm fully fits the data as of yet and that more research, testing, and exploration is in order?
And isn't the dogmatism of evos out of place with factual objectivity?

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 Message 27 by Yaro, posted 08-07-2005 3:01 PM Yaro has replied

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