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Author Topic:   The race issue
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1595 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 91 of 134 (492527)
01-01-2009 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Peg
12-30-2008 6:49 AM


Peg's misrepresentations...
Peg writes:

archeologist unearthed several temple towers at the ancient site of babylon and one inscription read "The building of this temple offended the gods. In a night they threw down what had been built. They scattered them abroad, and made strange their speech. The progress they impeded.”

granny magda writes:

Where does that quote come from? Here is the entire text of the tablets...

Peg writes:

When the assyrian kings library was discovered, they found around 10,000 tablets...they collected up all they could and took them to the british museum. Its from these tablets that we have information about ancient Assyria and its kings and their way of life etc.

the following quote is found on page 48 in smiths book. Smith being one of the interpreters of the tablets...

PaulK writes:

That quote does NOT come from the Assyrian tablets. The sources are even listed at the end ! (Eusebius and Syncellus). You misrepresent Smith yet again.

Peg writes:

i have no need to misrepresent anyone

:laugh: Oh Peg, so why do it?

Please acknowledge your "mistake" and we can move on. Your dishonest attempts to squirm out of this claim are not pretty, but they are typical of many creationist we encounter here. It does seem that dishonesty is a major unifying trait amongst creationists... perhaps you can begin to change that appearance?

Edited by cavediver, : subtitle change


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Peg, posted 12-30-2008 6:49 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Peg, posted 01-01-2009 7:45 AM cavediver has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 2881 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 92 of 134 (492528)
01-01-2009 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by cavediver
01-01-2009 7:08 AM


Re: It's Contradiction Time!
my apologies for not having a PHD
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by cavediver, posted 01-01-2009 7:08 AM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by cavediver, posted 01-01-2009 7:40 AM Peg has responded

    
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1595 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 93 of 134 (492529)
01-01-2009 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Peg
01-01-2009 7:34 AM


Re: It's Contradiction Time!
my apologies for not having a PHD

Who said anything about a PhD, degree, or even an advanced school qualification? If you can read, you have no excuse. If you have the ability to use a forum on the internet on which you are able to criticise carbon dating, then you are equally capable of actually learning something about the subject first, to prevent drawing mockery upon yourself...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Peg, posted 01-01-2009 7:34 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Peg, posted 01-01-2009 7:47 AM cavediver has responded
 Message 100 by dennis780, posted 05-11-2010 10:06 PM cavediver has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 2881 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 94 of 134 (492530)
01-01-2009 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by cavediver
01-01-2009 7:31 AM


Re: Peg's misrepresentations...
its getting slightly ridiculous dont you think? Chasing tails after semantics is a waste of bandwidth.

I have not misrepresented smith. Did you or anyone else bother to read the book?

perhaps you could read it yourself and let us know what it says about the Genesis legends.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by cavediver, posted 01-01-2009 7:31 AM cavediver has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 2881 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 95 of 134 (492531)
01-01-2009 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by cavediver
01-01-2009 7:40 AM


Re: It's Contradiction Time!
i have read a lot about carbon dating thank you

and from what i've read i am skeptical as to its accuracy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by cavediver, posted 01-01-2009 7:40 AM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 1595 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 96 of 134 (492535)
01-01-2009 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Peg
01-01-2009 7:47 AM


Re: It's Contradiction Time!
We're way off-topic (my fault) so please put your money where your mouth is and present your skepticism here
This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Peg, posted 01-01-2009 7:47 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 140 days)
Posts: 2372
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 97 of 134 (492536)
01-01-2009 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Peg
01-01-2009 5:28 AM


Re: It's Contradiction Time!
quote:
i dont like carbon dating

You don't like it? Oh the humanity!

quote:
because it is based on the assumption that the levels of C14 were the same in the the prehsitoric earth, as it is today

No it isn't. Look, if you have a problem with carbon dating, it's no use just saying "I don't like it." and throwing up your hands. You can't expect anyone to take your objections seriously if you are unwilling/unable to explain to everyone how you manage to see problems that thousands of brilliant and hard-working scientists have missed.

If you want to take on carbon dating, take it to an appropriate thread, such as this one; Message 19.

quote:
Also, my problem isnt with a young earth because the bible does NOT indicate a young earth and i do not believe in the young earth theory. It indicates young HUMANS. Young humans with a written history that only goes back approximately 5000 years.

Oh, well okay then;

Granny writes:

In short, you don't like carbon dating because it contradicts the Bible's young Earth humanity.

Same difference. You are still making the same category of error. You are putting the cart before the horse, putting the Bible before open and honest enquiry. It's a big mistake and so long as you insist on thinking this way, you are not really thinking at all.

By the way, you did misrepresent Smith and the Assyrian tablets. You made claims about what was in his book that, when examined, turned out to be wrong. I'm sure you didn't do it deliberately, but the fact remains that the quotes you attributed to those tablets, via Smith, do not appear there.

You just got it wrong, that's all. It's no big deal. I get things wrong all the time, as does everyone else. The thing to do is to admit your mistake. There's no point denying it, the posts are there for everyone to see.

Mutate and Survive


"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 14490
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 98 of 134 (492571)
01-01-2009 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Peg
01-01-2009 7:45 AM


Re: Peg's misrepresentations...
quote:

its getting slightly ridiculous dont you think? Chasing tails after semantics is a waste of bandwidth.

It isn't chasing semantics, though. It is presenting the proof that you have misrepresented Smith.

quote:

I have not misrepresented smith. Did you or anyone else bother to read the book?

Of course some of us have. That is how we KNOW that you have misrepresented Smith.
It's been proven here. Why attempt to deny it ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Peg, posted 01-01-2009 7:45 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
dennis780
Member (Idle past 2728 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 99 of 134 (559868)
05-11-2010 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by IceNorfulk
02-19-2008 1:18 PM


PICK ME PICK ME!!
Adam and Eve were black. I know what your thinking, WHAT. lol.

You see, if creation is true, and genetic information is complex, and can only be lost, not gained (which has been physically observed since the 1940`s, when scientists started looking more at genes and coding), then information can only be lost. Bear with me here, I do have a point.

The simple fact is that Melanin, the protien responsable for the color of your skin, is what makes black people black, chinese people yellow, and white people white. White people have the lowest levels of melanin, and black have the most.

Now lets jump to Noahs kids. They do NOT represent the different races of today. When the population of humans increased on earth, they all looked the same. They were all black. They spoke the same languages, etc. The biblical account of the tower of Babel is where things get interesting. God wanted to confuse the people of earth, so he spread them all over the world, and confused their language. It was more than likely (just my theory), that geographical locations of people would change differently than others, but each group should change to some extent the same.

This means that the people in china would change over time, but not the same as those in africa, or South America, etc. So, if I am right, each geographical group should change in physical appearance, but differently than others, and some may not change at all, or so small that it wouldn`t be physically apparent.

I could be off my rocker, but if the Bible is to be taken as historically correct, then this is one possibility for the different races on the earth.

One thing is for certain, before various modes of transportation were available to man (and woman, not being sexist), there was clearly grouping of different races on the earth. Whites being in certain areas, blacks in certain areas, and yellow in others. Now this could support my theory, or it could just mean that people who looked alike naturally felt comfortable in these areas, and chose not to leave.

Interested in other ideas as well though. This is simply a theory.

Dennis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by IceNorfulk, posted 02-19-2008 1:18 PM IceNorfulk has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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dennis780
Member (Idle past 2728 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 100 of 134 (559870)
05-11-2010 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by cavediver
01-01-2009 7:40 AM


Re: It's Contradiction Time!
Who said anything about a PhD, degree, or even an advanced school qualification? If you can read, you have no excuse. If you have the ability to use a forum on the internet on which you are able to criticise carbon dating, then you are equally capable of actually learning something about the subject first, to prevent drawing mockery upon yourself...

my apologies for not having a PHD

Who said anything about a PhD, degree, or even an advanced school qualification? If you can read, you have no excuse. If you have the ability to use a forum on the internet on which you are able to criticise carbon dating, then you are equally capable of actually learning something about the subject first, to prevent drawing mockery upon yourself...

Umm, this isn`t exactly the carbon dating thread, but it`s well known that carbon dating isn`t accurate for more than 50,000 years at a maximum. However, carbon dating is more than inaccurate in many cases under this maximum, due to the levels of carbon during the fossilization process is never known, and the carbon levels worldwide are never constant. In fact, there is almost no carbon at all in the north and south poles. This is also a problem with most new parent-daughter dating methods.

You can`t know how much time has passed if you don`t know how much sand was in the hourglass when it started.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by cavediver, posted 01-01-2009 7:40 AM cavediver has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 902 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 101 of 134 (559997)
05-12-2010 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by dennis780
05-11-2010 10:01 PM


Melanin variations
White people have the lowest levels of melanin, and black have the most.

This is so wrong it almost sounds like a joke. Was it a joke?

What gives human's their skin pigmentation is different types of melanin; it has nothing to do with more or less melanin.

See here

quote:
Because melanin is an aggregate of smaller component molecules, there are a number of different types of melanin with differing proportions and bonding patterns of these component molecules.

Eumelanin polymers have long been thought to comprise numerous cross-linked 5,6-dihydroxyindole (DHI) and 5,6-dihydroxyindole-2-carboxylic acid (DHICA) polymers; recent research into the electrical properties of eumelanin, however, has indicated that it may consist of more basic oligomers adhering to one another by some other mechanism. Eumelanin is found in hair, areola, and skin, and colors hair grey, black, yellow, and brown. In humans, it is more abundant in peoples with dark skin.

There are two different types of eumelanin. The two types are black eumelanin and brown eumelanin, with black melanin being darker than brown. Black eumelanin is mostly in non-Europeans and aged Europeans, while brown eumelanin is in mostly young Europeans.

A small amount of black eumelanin in the absence of other pigments causes grey hair. A small amount of brown eumelanin in the absence of other pigments causes yellow (blond) color hair.

Pheomelanin is also found in hair and skin and is both in lighter skinned humans and darker skinned humans. Pheomelanin imparts a pink to red hue and, thus, is found in particularly large quantities in red hair. Pheomelanin is particularly concentrated in the lips, areola, nipples, glans of the penis, and vagina. Pheomelanin also may become carcinogenic when exposed to the ultraviolet rays of the sun. Chemically, pheomelanin differs from eumelanin in that its oligomer structure incorporates benzothiazine units which are produced instead of DHI and DHICA when the amino acid L-cysteine is present.

Neuromelanin is the dark pigment present in pigment bearing neurons of four deep brain nuclei: the substantia nigra (in Latin, literally "black substance") - Pars Compacta part, the locus coeruleus ("blue spot"), the dorsal motor nucleus of the vagus nerve (cranial nerve X), and the median raphe nucleus of the pons. Both the substantia nigra and locus coeruleus can be easily identified grossly at the time of autopsy because of their dark pigmentation. In humans, these nuclei are not pigmented at the time of birth, but develop pigmentation during maturation to adulthood. Although the functional nature of neuromelanin is unknown in the brain, it may be a byproduct of the synthesis of monoamine neurotransmitters for which the pigmented neurons are the only source. The loss of pigmented neurons from specific nuclei is seen in a variety of neurodegenerative diseases. In Parkinson's disease there is massive loss of dopamine producing pigmented neurons in the substantia nigra. Neuromelanin has been detected in primates and in carnivores such as cats and dogs.


Now, explain how these different variations in melanin evolved, that's the real question and a good topic to discuss. But I did enjoy your whimsical tale of human evolution...it was quite amusing.

- Oni


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 Message 99 by dennis780, posted 05-11-2010 10:01 PM dennis780 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2046 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 102 of 134 (560011)
05-12-2010 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by onifre
05-12-2010 1:34 PM


Re: Melanin variations
What gives human's their skin pigmentation is different types of melanin; it has nothing to do with more or less melanin.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say it is both since your wiki article states of eumelanin, 'In humans, it is more abundant in peoples with dark skin.'

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by onifre, posted 05-12-2010 1:34 PM onifre has responded

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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5600
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 103 of 134 (560014)
05-12-2010 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by dennis780
05-11-2010 10:01 PM


Re: PICK ME PICK ME!!
I could be off my rocker, but if the Bible is to be taken as historically correct, then this is one possibility for the different races on the earth.

You are right to some extent, minus the timeline and the need for the bible to be introduced. Different races stem from mutation and isolation of genes. Geography plays a large part in having separated people of various races for long periods of time allowing them to develop distinct physical features over time.

Over time, long periods of time (not 4,000 years) being the operative phrase here...

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." Blaise Pascal
This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 58 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 104 of 134 (560042)
05-12-2010 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by dennis780
05-11-2010 10:06 PM


Re: It's Contradiction Time!
Umm, this isn`t exactly the carbon dating thread, but it`s well known that carbon dating isn`t accurate for more than 50,000 years at a maximum. However, carbon dating is more than inaccurate in many cases under this maximum, due to the levels of carbon during the fossilization process is never known, and the carbon levels worldwide are never constant. In fact, there is almost no carbon at all in the north and south poles. This is also a problem with most new parent-daughter dating methods.

Pure nonsense. There is just as much carbon 14 at the north and south poles as anywhere else -- it's in the atmosphere!

And C14 dating is not a parent-daughter dating method.

Why don't you read up on these subjects before you post, or before you uncritically pass on creationist misinformation? That is a good way to avoid looking foolish.

You can`t know how much time has passed if you don`t know how much sand was in the hourglass when it started.

C14 dating avoids this problem. I'll leave it up to you to figure out how. (Hint: de Vries 1958.)


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by dennis780, posted 05-11-2010 10:06 PM dennis780 has responded

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onifre
Member (Idle past 902 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 105 of 134 (560115)
05-13-2010 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Wounded King
05-12-2010 2:24 PM


Re: Melanin variations
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say it is both since your wiki article states of eumelanin, 'In humans, it is more abundant in peoples with dark skin.'

Right, but it's not an increase or decrease in one specific melanin; it's the absence or presence of different types of melanin that give the variations in skin pigmentation.

- Oni


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 Message 102 by Wounded King, posted 05-12-2010 2:24 PM Wounded King has not yet responded

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