Falsification of Biblical Creation

Heineken. Amstel at a push.

Wow i forgot about this thread, anyway: human understanding plays a large part in this, being that people have only human design and invention, so for most people through-out the ages the only thing they could possibly think of was something powerful created the world - god/s
the fact that we have a new frame-work that works as it were, calls into question whether the evidence taken for god/s designs show god/s existence at all. of course the evidence could still show gods hand in subtle ways is belief rather than objective proof makes it a bit harder to sway people

Thank you for the welcom everyone, it's much appreciated. When I say God, right now I mean simply an omnipotent, omniscient, being, maybe omnipresent, no specific God to say. Now I have my beliefs as to who God is, but right now I'm just talking about the idea of an all powerful, all knowing or at least inteligent being, in general.
This is just basic ID so far.
I understand all of oyur arguments, and I see where oyur coming from. Although, in response to my argument that the universe needs a creator and cannot come from nothing, someone I think said something a long the lines of why not, or that it's possible that can happen. Well yeah, anything is possible, but it's a scientific fact according to our level of knowledge so far anyway, that out of nothing comes nothing, or again, matter cannot be created nor destroyed, by natural means anyway, which I believe is the second law of thermodynamics, although I think there's some ideas in Quantum mechanics or somehting that somewhat contends with that but I can't comment on that since I know very, very little of Quantum Mechanics.

Hello Tiger, welcome in etc,How about a little thought experiment?What would it take to make you believe that the universe was not created by a god?

Thats the problem with religion. It starts as an honest way of trying to make sense of the univers and then gets locked into a rut and never changes.Look at how the chatholics have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the real world every few decades.

I assume you meant Catholics, because Chatholics are a new phenomenone,
with the advent of AOL instant messanger and Yahoo Chat.I find that the fact that the Catholics do have the ability to be brought kicking and screaming into the real world much more refreshing than some of the bible literalists that still believe in a 6000 year old universe.

You could look at it that way but I would prefer them to come clean and admit it is all bollocks all in one go, rather than bit by bit over the course of several centuries.It would be a lot quicker.

But there's the probelm, you don't know for sure or even have a real good reason to believe it is all bolocks. Now, I disagree with most bible literalists, I mean, I'm a Judeo-christian but I believe in an old earth, I believe in evolution (within a species not from one species to another) and I believe much of the bible is metaphorical. However, I still beleive in God, and hte trinity, and that Jesus Christ is the "son" of God and the messiah, savior of the world, etc. I also firmly believe in a speritual realm. So, you can except science and still believe the Bible, it's just a matter of proper interpretation, translation, etc.
Another hting I believe, is that it's highly likely that the story of Cain and Abel is the story of the conflict between hunter-gatherers and agrarians.Edited by The Tiger, : Spelling errors

The idea of a god/gods or a higher power seems to be a relatively world wide phenomenon in one form or another. These ideas had to originate somewhere and be seen as valuable.

Well, we also know that if you add up all the 'positive' energy in the universe' and then add up the 'negaitive' energy'.. (i.e. gravity, and such), we get zero.. to the universe is essentially nothing.There also is the logical conundrum about 'Where did god come from'. Now, usually the answer is 'god is eternal'. If that is true, then, why can't the conditions that allowed the universe to form also be 'eternal' but without the added complexity of needing an intelligent complex being with a purpose?

it has to do with the consistency of the human mind, if you see that we can design and create things with our intellegence and thats the only way we can look at the world, the logical thing people would believe would that everything is created by something intelligent.it seems like a logical equivilation if thats the only way you have to look at things, this is the core of arguments about evc
i mean think about it, you buld anything - you look around you see everything everyone else is bulding, this is what you understand - you look at the amazing natural world, you observe a storm and how it works but you can't come up with very many possiblities, one being gee it must take a powerful person to make that. so what would the person be? something big and powerful - a god
they are valuable since its the only explaination to people with a limited view point

Because all current scientific research points the universe having a definite beginning or starting pointing of it's expansion, and with darkmatter, there is nothing to pull it back in.

We all limit our view point to that in which we believe. There are no exceptions. The core argument of evc is strictly philosophical. It has been and will remain so. It simply depends upon where you wish to put your beliefs. There is no conflict between evolution and creation in my mind. Biblical creation was meant to teach humility and was written in a way that matched the understanding of the day. Evolution to me is simply creation better understood in a strictly mechanical sense.

If you want any one to believe it is not all bollocks, the burden of proof is on you.You can't claim that your god is real with out stepping up to the crease and telling us how you know it is real.Imagine I start from a position of having zero knowledge about any god: how would you convince me your one is real?

Religion changes all the time. A cursory glance at history would tell you that. But God never changes. Nor is it likely that you would want him to.Imagine trying to build a house with a measuring tape which changed.Edited by iano, : No reason given.