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Author Topic:   Smoking-Gun Evidence of Man-Monkey Kindred: Episode I - endogenous retrovirus
AdminAsgara
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Message 16 of 20 (267144)
12-09-2005 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Carico
12-09-2005 9:22 AM


Pick One On Topic Thread Carico
Carico, I'm going to "strongly suggest" that you pick either this thread or From chimp to man: it's as easy as 1, 2, 3!. Posting the same types of pseudo-questions and responses all over the forum will not be allowed.

Pick one and stay there with your discussion.

We here at EvC try to keep a handle on our thread topics. Posting off topic to the main theme of the thread is hightly frowned upon and at times has gotten members suspended.

Please do not respond to me here other than a "yes, I understand." Any discussion of this suggestion can be taken to the appropriate thread listed in my signature box.

This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 12-09-2005 08:32 AM


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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 14 by Carico, posted 12-09-2005 9:22 AM Carico has not yet responded

        
    nwr
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    Posts: 5544
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    Message 17 of 20 (267146)
    12-09-2005 9:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 12 by Carico
    12-07-2005 2:02 PM


    (contents deleted)
    (deleting this)

    This message has been edited by nwr, 12-09-2005 08:34 AM


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by Carico, posted 12-07-2005 2:02 PM Carico has not yet responded

      
    Modulous
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    (1)
    Message 18 of 20 (267147)
    12-09-2005 9:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 14 by Carico
    12-09-2005 9:22 AM


    And how many mutations had to have occurred to in the same family of offspring to produce all the changes that led to a human being?

    This is offtopic. I was hoping you read my post in which I provided you a link that answers this very question for you.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 14 by Carico, posted 12-09-2005 9:22 AM Carico has not yet responded

        
    Taq
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    (1)
    Message 19 of 20 (627207)
    08-01-2011 11:46 AM


    Bumped for further discussion of ERV's.

    Some have asserted that finding the same virus chimps and gorillas but not in humans or orangutans falsifies the ERV evidence. That claim is completely false. What creationists always ignore is the locus that the ERV's are found at. That is, are they orthologous or non-orthologous.

    One such example is PTERV1. This retrovirus is found in chimps, gorillas, and various other primate species but it is not found in humans or orangutans. According to this paper not a single insertion is found at an orthologous position (i.e. at the same locus) in any of the species. Therefore, there is no conflict with the consensus phylogeny for apes (including humans) and other primates. If the PTERV1 insertions were found at orthologous positions then this would conflict, but they aren't.

    The sad part is that even after you explain this to creationists they refuse to understand it. They refuse to even consider that retroviruses continued to invade the genomes of many species after speciation events. Don't ask me why, but somehow the creationist mind can not accept this fact.


    Replies to this message:
     Message 20 by cavediver, posted 08-01-2011 12:15 PM Taq has not yet responded

      
    cavediver
    Member (Idle past 1258 days)
    Posts: 4129
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    Joined: 06-16-2005


    (1)
    Message 20 of 20 (627214)
    08-01-2011 12:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 19 by Taq
    08-01-2011 11:46 AM


    The sad part is that even after you explain this to creationists they refuse to understand it. They refuse to even consider that retroviruses continued to invade the genomes of many species after speciation events. Don't ask me why, but somehow the creationist mind can not accept this fact.

    You're not kidding... just look at this comment:

    Mazzy writes:

    Well, I'll take your word for it. However I found this also

    "There are many thousands of endogenous retroviruses within human DNA, with HERVs comprising nearly 8% of the human genome and composed with 98,000 elements and fragments.[11]) According to one study published in 2005, no HERVs capable of replication had been identified; all appeared to be defective, containing major deletions or nonsense mutations. This is because most are just long-lasting traces of the original virus, having first integrated many millions of years ago. "
    http://uk.ask.com/wiki/Human_endogenous_retroviruses

    This just shows this is straw grabbing. These ghosts you think you have found contain major deletions and nonsense mutations. How on earth can you expect anyone to believe this? It appears to me that a better ananysis of this information should lead one to conclude that in actual fact ERV's in the various species are most often nothing like human ones and there has benn alot of what I call gobble going on to link them to common ancestry.

    It's just insane. Mazzy has either no clue about this, which I find hard to believe, or he is deliberately playing dumb and desperately trying to obfuscate the whole issue. I don't like accusing people of such dishonesty, but I don't know what other conclusion to draw.

    The one half-coherent argument I have seen used against the orthologous ERVs is that they are not ERVs at all, but original coding regions that are a necessary part of the origanisms, and their explanation is thus simple re-use of code by the designer.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 19 by Taq, posted 08-01-2011 11:46 AM Taq has not yet responded

      
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