ERV's: Evidence of Common Ancestory

Welcome to the fray, pcver, There's this cute little dBCode you can use:type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes: type [qs=RAZD]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes: or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:

quote:

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quotes are easy

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I believe the point is not ERV's since chimp\human split, but the ERV's that are common to all humans and all chimps.How do you explain these common ERV's when they serve no purpose to either group? Each group has picked up new ERV's since they split from the common ancestor population/s, but they all still carry common ERV's that they inherited from the common ancestor population/s.Enjoy.

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One of the predictions of common ancestry with chimps was that the 46 chromosomes in chimps would match up to the 44 chromosomes in humans with one human chromosome formed from the fusion of two chromosomes in chimps - and this has proven true.One of the predictions of common ancestry with chimps is that common ERV's would be in the same locations on genes in both genomes.Prediction: the ERV's on the combined chromosome will also match for another degree of correlation - ie they were there before combination occurred in humans.Enjoy.

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Rebel American Zen Deist
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Hi pcver, long post, lots of denial. First off logic is not "frauded" or even fraudulent - it is either valid or invalid. To show that it is invalid you need to show that either a logical fallacy was made in the construction of the argument or that one of the premises is false. Curiously you have not done that, only claimed that there is some nefarious purpose (fraud) being committed.Second your prediction is not what common ancestry predicts. What common ancestry predicts is that offspring populations (like chimps and humans) would have the same genetic pattern as their parent population (the common ancestor population), and usually (but not always) arranged in the same basic set of chromosomes. The theory of common ancestry further predicts that when there is a difference in the number of chromosomes, that there will be evidence of either duplication of a chromosome, loss of a whole chromosome, the fusion of two chromosomes into one or the division of one chromosome into two.We can eliminate the duplication by looking at what the chromosomes carry as genes and see if a whole set of genes is duplicated in the population with more chromosomes (chimps). It isn't, therefore duplication did not occur.We can eliminate loss by looking at the overall similarity of the genomes and see if one has a whole lot of genes that are missing in the population with fewer chromosomes (human). The genomes are some 95 to 98% similar, so no this did not happen either.That leaves fusion as a prediction for the difference in number of chromosomes between chimps and humans.Chromosomes come with a curious pattern, they all have telomeres at the ends and centromeres somewhere in the middle.Thus, if division of a chromosome occurred there should a new centromere in one chromosome in the population with more chromosomes (chimps) that does not exist in the human genome. This is not the case, as every centromere found in the chimp genome is also present in the human genome.This leaves fusion, which predicts that (a) one chromosome with be found in the population with fewer chromosomes (human) with two centromere, and that (b) one of the centromeres will be deactivated to prevent confusion during cell division, and finally that (c) the fusion point will be where telomeres have combined. Shockingly all three of these predictions is exactly what we find.The theory of common ancestry also predicts that the pattern of ERV and LTR insertions will be carried from parent population to daughter populations, and that when we have a difference in the number of chromosomes, that the pattern of ERV and LTR will also show what happened.We can eliminate the duplication by looking at what the chromosomes carry as ERVs and LTRs and see if a whole set of ERVs and LTRs is duplicated in the population with more chromosomes (chimps). It isn't, therefore duplication did not occur.We can eliminate loss by looking at the overall similarity of the genomes and see if one has a whole lot of ERVs and LTRs that are missing in the population with fewer chromosomes (human). This also did not happen, so loss did not occur.This leaves us with division or fusion, which predict that the pattern of ERVs and LTRs will be the same, but will be in one group for one chromosome in the population with fewer chromosomes (human), and in two groups in the population with more chromosomes (chimps). Surprisingly this to is exactly what we see.We also find the same pattern with gene sequences along the chromosomes.There is absolutely no logical reason for these repeated and repeated and repeated patterns to exist without common ancestry, as genes could function in any pattern in a population of organisms. You can believe what you want. Interestingly, belief does not change reality. And, curiously, neither your acceptance, nor your conscience, have absolutely no effect on nature, the law of gravity, biology in general or evolution in specific. Life is like that.Enjoy.

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Rebel American Zen Deist
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Curiously, not one of those four predicted outcomes of common descent had to occur in reality, they are only necessary to occur IF common descent is a valid theory.The mixture of chromosomes between chimps and humans could have been completely mixed up and fulfilled none of these conditions. This is what a lack of common descent would predict. You're just trying to shoehorn denial of reality into your argument. The fact remains that these four results are not the only possible results necessary, they are only necessary if common descent is a valid theory. Whining about anyone of them validating common descent does not mean that it is a fraudulent position, rather it is missing the fact that only 4 out of a possibly infinite number of DNA strand combinations that would allow humans and chimps to exist as organisms, and any one of them could have been ture ... if they did NOT have a common ancestor. Correct - because the prediction is that one of these four results, out of an infinite variety, would be true if the theory of common descent was a valid theory.These four different predictions do not cover all the possibilities, and if not one of them had occurred then the theory would have been invalidated. As noted, there is no reason for any one of those 4 predicted outcome to occur UNLESS common descent were true. Predictions is how science is done. Get used to it. Proof is another matter -- not one scientific theory is ever proven. What we get is validation and invalidation. Validation leaves us with tentative confidence in the value of a theory to explain reality, invalidation leaves us with one more theory to discard. Why yes. It is one of the results of observing evolution and speciation in action as they occur -- we see branching of species into subpopulations, and then we theorize that this has been going on since the dawn of time ... what do you think that might predict?Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : spling

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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Rebel American Zen Deist
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