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Author
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Topic: What makes homo sapiens "human"?
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1532 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: 02-19-2004
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Message 76 of 125 (120118)
06-29-2004 6:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 74 by custard
06-29-2004 3:10 PM
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Re: If it looks like a duck.....
Hi custard, I apologize if my line of thought is perturbing to you. custard writes: No. I wouldn't agree that human language evolved from trillobytes either. Are humans apes or not? If your answer is yes then how is it humans have the monopoly on this word called language? When did Humans cease being apes? And when did ape/ animal communication begin to be called language? Is there a distinct line from human ancestors formulating communication to what is call language? I have been ignorant of what language is. I always thought that humans were animals with large brains that have evolved to the point of being able to communicate in very complex ways, and that this was Human language, but I always thought that other animals had language as well. I have learned something. Great topic custard  *edit typo. This message has been edited by 1.61803, 06-29-2004 05:27 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 74 by custard, posted 06-29-2004 3:10 PM | | custard has replied |
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custard
Inactive Member
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Message 77 of 125 (120131)
06-29-2004 6:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 76 by 1.61803
06-29-2004 6:25 PM
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Re: If it looks like a duck.....
Are humans apes or not? Yes humans are related to apes.
If your answer is yes then how is it humans have the monopoly on this word called language? Dude, the same way we humans have a monopoly on a thing called the opposable thumb. Does an ape, by virtue of being related to us also have a thumb? So why should it have the ability to use language? Especially if guys like Chomsky are correct and language is only possible because of the way our brains have developed.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 76 by 1.61803, posted 06-29-2004 6:25 PM | | 1.61803 has not replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1495 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 78 of 125 (120136)
06-29-2004 6:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 73 by custard
06-29-2004 3:07 PM
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Show me which animal communication fulfills all of these criteria. I don't believe that all human communication fulfulls these criteria. But we still consider it a use of language when a human says "goodbye" to another reflexively, without thinking about it (ala using the elements of language without being aware of their meaning). The entire field of etiquitte is about using words reflexivly, without thinking about their meaning. How often have you said "how are you?" without actually intending to ask how a person is? If human communication can be considered language without meeting all these criteria, it seems like a double standard to insist that animals meet them all. But I guess you may disagree. Certainly the "best" use of human language meets these criteria. (I think your addition of syntax is covered under "discreetness", btw, or possibly "duality".)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 73 by custard, posted 06-29-2004 3:07 PM | | custard has not replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 505 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Message 79 of 125 (120145)
06-29-2004 7:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 76 by 1.61803
06-29-2004 6:25 PM
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Re: If it looks like a duck.....
the golden ratio writes: Are humans apes or not?
I've always been under the impression that humans are homonids, not apes.
The Laminator
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 76 by 1.61803, posted 06-29-2004 6:25 PM | | 1.61803 has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 80 by Chiroptera, posted 06-29-2004 7:49 PM | | coffee_addict has replied |
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member
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Re: If it looks like a duck.....
The actual names depend, I think, on who is doing the classification, but Hominidae would appear to include the extant apes, as well.
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 505 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Re: If it looks like a duck.....
That's odd. I could have sworn that I learned in bio that one of the criteria for being a homonid is bipedal locomotion. Oh well.
The Laminator
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by Chiroptera, posted 06-29-2004 7:49 PM | | Chiroptera has replied |
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member
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Re: If it looks like a duck.....
I think the exact words and their meanings depend on who is doing the classification. I agree, that I think I have heard hominid as referring to bipedal apes. I think I have seen hominoid used to refer to the apes in general.
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John Williams
Member (Idle past 5026 days) Posts: 157 From: Oregon, US Joined: 06-29-2004
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Message 83 of 125 (120161)
06-29-2004 9:43 PM
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What makes us human?
Well we define ourselves as human. We are biologically as animal as a tarantualla, but our actions and beliefs and thought contribute to the overall "humanhood" of us. That's my short summary.
Corpus Maritanius 1964 -
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 505 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Re: If it looks like a duck.....
Chiroptera writes: I agree, that I think I have heard hominid as referring to bipedal apes. I think I have seen hominoid used to refer to the apes in general.
That's it! A light bulb just lite up above my head. Homonid (or hominid- which ever way you want) refers to bipedal primates. Homonoid (or hominoid - either way) refers to apes and homonids. Ok, I have that cleared up in my head now.
The Laminator
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 82 by Chiroptera, posted 06-29-2004 8:01 PM | | Chiroptera has not replied |
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1532 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: 02-19-2004
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Re: If it looks like a duck.....
Hi Lam, birds are bipedal as well as us hairless apes.  Ok, Humans are hominids as you have said. Early humans were hominids as well, we are in the order primates along with the apes. So I apologize for being misleading. Living Links | Page not found
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 505 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Message 86 of 125 (120186)
06-29-2004 11:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 85 by 1.61803
06-29-2004 11:18 PM
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Re: If it looks like a duck.....
I currently use a 56k modem to get online, so it takes forever to fish online for info. All my books are still in my suitcases (I still haven't unpacked). Right now, I am only pulling info out of my long term memory banks.
The Laminator
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 85 by 1.61803, posted 06-29-2004 11:18 PM | | 1.61803 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 87 by 1.61803, posted 06-29-2004 11:38 PM | | coffee_addict has not replied |
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1532 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: 02-19-2004
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Re: If it looks like a duck.....
Your one of the smartest people I don't know Lam. Sorry off topic but Custard has dug his heels into this language thread and has defended his premise with valor and merit, To bad I still do not completely agree
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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6050 days) Posts: 1567 Joined: 06-10-2004
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Message 88 of 125 (120232)
06-30-2004 1:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 77 by custard
06-29-2004 6:44 PM
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If it looks like a thumb.....
Dude, the same way we humans have a monopoly on a thing called the opposable thumb. Does an ape, by virtue of being related to us also have a thumb? Apparently, since apes do have opposable thumbs, as do other animals. Not only do we not have a monopoly, we pale in comparison to the koala, which has six opposable digits:
Also, most primates have an opposable thumb; that is, a thumb that can be brought opposite the forefinger, allowing them to grasp and cling tightly to the branches of trees. Opposable thumbs allow primates to make fine manipulations with their hands, which probably led to the ability to use tools. In humans, the thumb is proportionately larger than in other primates, and the tip of this opposable thumb can cross over the palm to touch the other fingers. frontpage.kconline.com/tschriefer/Lecture%20Notes/chapter19.htm Chimpanzees' hands are very much like ours; they have four long fingers plus an opposable thumb (the thumb is shorter than the other fingers). Their feet have five toes, including an opposable big toe. Chimpanzees can grasp things with both their hands and their feet. http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/apes/chimp/ * Panda - Panda paws have five clawed fingers plus an extra bone that works like an opposable thumb. This "thumb" is not really a finger (like our thumb is), but an extra-long wrist bone that works like a thumb. * Koala - opposable toe on each foot, plus two opposable digits on each hand * Opossum - opposable thumb * Cebids (New World primates of Central and South America) - some have opposable thumbs * Bornean Orangutan - opposable thumbs so that its forefeet are really like hands. The interdigital grip gives them the ability to pick fruit. They also have an opposable big toe. From Wikipedia.com Perhaps the more important question is, why don't we have opposable toes? Likely because we don't hang out in trees anymore; since the opposable thumb/toe appears to have been initially an adaptation to arboreal life and the branch-grasping it entails. So if an ape gives you an (opposable) thumbs-up, is that an abstraction worthy of language?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by custard, posted 06-29-2004 6:44 PM | | custard has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 89 by custard, posted 06-30-2004 3:44 AM | | pink sasquatch has not replied | | | Message 90 by custard, posted 06-30-2004 3:48 AM | | pink sasquatch has replied |
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custard
Inactive Member
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Re: If it looks like a thumb.....
So if an ape gives you an (opposable) thumbs-up, is that an abstraction worthy of language? If so, then we have all the evidence we need to prove apes can use language in Every Which Way But Loose.
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custard
Inactive Member
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Re: If it looks like a thumb.....
Apparently, since apes do have opposable thumbs, as do other animals. OK, you got me... but can apes do this?
This message has been edited by custard, 06-30-2004 02:48 AM This message has been edited by custard, 06-30-2004 03:08 AM
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