Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 122 (8773 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 07-25-2017 6:52 PM
224 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Tom Larkin
Post Volume:
Total: 814,614 Year: 19,220/21,208 Month: 1,979/3,111 Week: 200/574 Day: 42/90 Hour: 3/2

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
2
345Next
Author Topic:   Between A Rock & A Hard Place
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2158
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 16 of 65 (514792)
07-12-2009 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Peg
07-12-2009 2:52 AM


Product of the Times Should be Subject to Recall
Peg writes:

Find out what the original words actually meant when they were written, study study study and Pray for guidance. And if you find a difference between the two, trust the bible first and foremost because that is where Gods truths are to be found.

If the commands of the Bible are to be obeyed before civil law, why aren't you stoning WalMart shoppers to death for violating the Sabbath? Why aren't you doing the same to adulterers, homosexuals, and wiccans for violating the laws in Leviticus?

Is your head covered in church? do you believe all forms of child abuse up to and including murder are justified? Are you an advocate of slavery? animal abuse? misogyny? racism?

Essentially everyone here knows you are hypocritical in such advice, except evidently you.

Perhaps it is you who should actually read the entire Bible (pick at least one out of the thousands of versions) instead of telling others what it is all about.

Perhaps then you might understand the difference between the map and the territory instead of IMO using both as toilet paper.

Edited by anglagard, : edit out redundant word

Edited by anglagard, : Remove double word


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Peg, posted 07-12-2009 2:52 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 65 (514793)
07-12-2009 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by ICANT
07-12-2009 9:54 PM


Re: Re-I don't know
ICANT writes:

Phat as Jesus told Nicodumus ye must be born again.


AKA "Set aside your brain and follow me." MATTHEW 16:24 (Paraphrased)

Learn to distinguish between what you know and what you hope, and you will be much happier.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ICANT, posted 07-12-2009 9:54 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 170 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 18 of 65 (514794)
07-12-2009 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
07-11-2009 10:06 AM


Hi, Phat.

I think you know how well I can sympathize with you. I've been trying to ride the fence since I started here (I am gradually creeping away from the traditional views of Christianity as I go, though).

I no longer like to be associated with many religious communities, conventions and ideas. The entire religious atmosphere feels stifling and stagnant, and the learning processes I am taught and expected to subscribe to simply do not make sense to me.

But I still feel that there is some important modicum of truth to my religion, despite the fact that I can't seem to tell what it is. For that reason (and to maintain the harmony and acceptance of my family), I hang on.

Also, the mythology of my religion seems to be getting less and less plausible to me every day, such that I am essentially uninterested in it anymore beyond its significance as a celebration of my traditional culture.

-----

If there is one thing that I have learned from science, it's that there is uncertainty in literally everything. Stepping away from my religious heritage and into the world of rational inquiry often makes me confused and scared, because I can never be sure whether an idea makes sense to me because it is a strong argument, or simply because the presenter is a good debator. I can also never tell whether a certain scientist actually has good data, or whether he is simply adhering to his pet theory, in which he has staked his reputation (these thing do happen quite often).

The uncertainty is nerve-racking for someone who has been raised to believe in the existence of certainty, perfection and TruthTM. Occasionally, when the tentativity of science makes me dizzy, I feel that it's necessary to retreat back to my religion. At other times, I feel empowered by my education to work out solutions on my own. Only when I feel like the solution is too difficult for me do I feel like I need to be religious again.

But, my religion just makes me sad anymore, because believing in God only feels like giving up.

-----

Basically, Phat, you're not alone.

Tell me, what is it that you believe is correct and true about Jesus and His mission on Earth? Which parts of His story do you find indispensable?


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 07-11-2009 10:06 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 07-13-2009 12:46 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2158
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(1)
Message 19 of 65 (514795)
07-12-2009 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
07-11-2009 10:06 AM


Read the Sig
From what I know of you from posts and chat, I would say you have a simple and indeed almost childlike faith in the basic tenets of Christianity. In your case I find it not only non-threatening but even somewhat charming.

Does it not say in the Bible something to the effect that you will know them by their fruits?

So who is more apt to provide the best counsel, those who have at least one version of the Bible permanently burned into memory (Purpledawn, Dr. Bill, and even Brian or Coragyps here among others or the formidable Ringo, Arachnophilia and jar at Dreamcatcher) or is it those who claim superior knowledge of the Bible to all and yet have to be continuously corrected (no names needed, we all know who they are except themselves).

You have some platitudes and some great advice, some shit and some shinola. Just use critical thinking and your own inner voice (whatever the source) and I'm sure things will work out into a reasonably cohesive view (even if there are a few things accepted yet are unprovable matters of faith).

Just remember that if the map conflicts with the territory, choose the territory because the territory was created by God (to those religiously inclined) and the map was made by men. And if you can't accept that advice from the likes of Purpledawn, jar, or Ringo then read it from Spinoza, who says the exact same thing.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 07-11-2009 10:06 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
slevesque
Member (Idle past 2112 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 20 of 65 (514802)
07-13-2009 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
07-11-2009 10:06 AM


Don't marry your theology with the truth's of today, or you may well be widowed tomorrow
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 07-11-2009 10:06 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1316
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 21 of 65 (514821)
07-13-2009 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by cavediver
07-12-2009 7:46 PM


Re: What to Believe
I'm sure she is, as it is trivially true. The Bible is a collection of works, the most recent of which completed some considerable time before redaction. How could the Bible itself claim infallibility when none of its components contain any knowledge of its own existence???

Because several parts of the Bible do contain reference to 'Scripture', so 2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) tells us:

quote:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

You could argue this isn't a claim of inerrancy, but the Bible is capable of making reference to itself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by cavediver, posted 07-12-2009 7:46 PM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2009 7:38 AM caffeine has not yet responded
 Message 27 by purpledawn, posted 07-13-2009 10:40 AM caffeine has not yet responded
 Message 30 by cavediver, posted 07-13-2009 2:06 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 929 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 22 of 65 (514822)
07-13-2009 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Hyroglyphx
07-12-2009 7:23 PM


Re: What to Believe
quote:
So are you saying that the bible itself doesn't teach the doctrine of infallibility, but dogma does?
The Bible doesn't teach. It isn't alive. The authors may have taught through their writings or people teach from the writings within the Bible.
Besides, I asked first? You said that's how the Bible presents itself. You said the New Testament claimed infallibility for the NT and the OT. Show me.

Which author or authors claim that the other writings within the Bible are infallible?
Which author or authors claim the idea of all or nothing?
Which author or authors claim the other writings must be viewed as absolutely perfect or absolutely flawed?

Infallible

If the writings in the Bible don't support a current religious teaching, who is really wrong? The writer or the current teacher? I would say the current teacher is wrong.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-12-2009 7:23 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2009 5:07 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 2401 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 23 of 65 (514823)
07-13-2009 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Hyroglyphx
07-12-2009 11:08 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:

Strangely enough all cults claim the same esoteric promises; the select few with the illusion of having insider knowledge while the masses are lost.

yes, that may be true...however its not limited to cults, its the basis of every religion when you think about it.

Hyroglyphx writes:

That's just it though, Peg. He's been asking for a long time and he's received next to nothing. If you examine what he's writing and read between the lines, he's searching for validation for his beliefs. As he said himself, he doesn't know what to believe anymore.

i'd be interested to know how he studies or what he studies, or who he studies with. Perhaps its time he searched our some other methods of learning...i dont know, im just saying that if its not working for him, perhaps the source material is lacking.

Hyroglyphx writes:

What relationship? Seems terribly one-sided.

God doesnt make a persons life perfect just because they have a relationship with him. And we shouldnt strive to have relationship with him because of what we can get out of it. (not that its wrong to want something out of it) But he does add meaning, purpose and hope to ones life now...and in the future the promise of more material long lasting & permanent blessings.

Hyroglyphx writes:

Isn't that circular? And which parts, since some clearly contradict others?

I know people say that, but i've never seen a contradiction that cannot be explained. i've actually found that contradictions occur when interpretations are misapplied.

do you have any in mind?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-12-2009 11:08 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Phage0070, posted 07-13-2009 8:44 AM Peg has responded

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 929 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 24 of 65 (514824)
07-13-2009 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by themasterdebator
07-12-2009 6:39 PM


Re: What to Believe
quote:
So then God did not intend the Bible for all people?
Unfortunately we don't have any writing that gives us God's opinion on the various Biblical canons.

quote:
Only a specific audience and a specific time?
That's what I said. The writers wrote for their own people in their own language, not for people of other languages or in the far future. The redactors and the editors did their work for their time, not the far future.

If the writers in the Bible really intended their manuscripts to be read by me, they would have written it in English and would have stayed away from idioms and slang or explained them.

Writers write for their audience and their time. When I write to someone I know is uncomfortable with the English language, I try not to use slang, catch phrases, or idioms. If I use them, I explain them.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by themasterdebator, posted 07-12-2009 6:39 PM themasterdebator has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12872
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 25 of 65 (514827)
07-13-2009 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by caffeine
07-13-2009 6:01 AM


Re: What to Believe
quote:

You could argue this isn't a claim of inerrancy, but the Bible is capable of making reference to itself.

But only if you assume that "scripture" means the Bible that we're all familiar with. And there is no guarantee that that is the intended meaning. Theoretically the last-written book of the Bible COULD include an explicit list of all the books that should be included - but none does.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by caffeine, posted 07-13-2009 6:01 AM caffeine has not yet responded

    
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 65 (514833)
07-13-2009 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Peg
07-13-2009 6:20 AM


Peg writes:

yes, that may be true...however its not limited to cults, its the basis of every religion when you think about it.


This is one of the reasons some argue that all religions are in essence really big and long-lived cults. It fits remarkably well.

Peg writes:

And we shouldnt strive to have relationship with him because of what we can get out of it. (not that its wrong to want something out of it) But he does add meaning, purpose and hope to ones life now...and in the future the promise of more material long lasting & permanent blessings.


So you suggest we shouldn't do what he says for what we can get out of it, but almost in the same breath mention the point of material blessings promised in the future. These concepts seem at odds. Besides, if God isn't going to give blessings now and he isn't going to give blessings later, what possible reason would there be to do what he says? If God was just giving out some helpful tips for living then what is the point of worship, praying, belief in general?

Peg writes:

I know people say that, but i've never seen a contradiction that cannot be explained.


And you generally do so by concluding that it means something at odds with what it says. If you are going to ignore the scripture anyway, why read it in the first place?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 6:20 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 9:55 PM Phage0070 has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 929 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 27 of 65 (514849)
07-13-2009 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by caffeine
07-13-2009 6:01 AM


Re: What to Believe
quote:
You could argue this isn't a claim of inerrancy, but the Bible is capable of making reference to itself.
Unfortunately when personifying the Bible today people tend to forget it was a process.

The letter supposedly written by Paul in 2 Timothy (100-150CE) wasn't written by Paul and wasn't referring to itself. The writer would have been referring to the Jewish Canon.

Just because the writings have been clumped together, is it really accurate to say the writer was referring to the compilation that contains his writing or is it better to understand what scriptures the writer was actually referring to?

Due to changes in the presentation of the writings, our view is very different from the writer's.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by caffeine, posted 07-13-2009 6:01 AM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9499
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 28 of 65 (514855)
07-13-2009 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Blue Jay
07-12-2009 10:53 PM


Synopsis
Phage0070 writes:

If you don't believe that the Bible is inerrant because it does not make sense to you, why does an admirable being that kills its own son out of anger at someone else make sense to you? What makes belief in Jesus and God more sensible than the Bible?


The God that I believe in is, to me, alive and personal. Never mind that some may say I made Him up....I believe that His Spirit lives within me. That is the only aspect that I could be said to have taken from the Bible. I don't even think about the O.T. vengeful God, or any of that stuff as written, since I don't understand it. Its a disconnect with my ideas about God.

Hyroglyphx writes:

you've been asking redundant questions for over four years and you apparently still don't have the answer you're looking for.


Actually, my faith is stronger now than it was four years ago. Granted, my belief in a personal relationship with God is illogical and unverifiable, but I chose to take a stand on this particular uncertainty and not on others.

Hyroglyphx writes:

what does this all benefit you? What are you getting out of this deal, where he gets all praise and worship for what exactly? What does he do?

If I believe that God is wiser than we all are, has an ultimate plan, and allows us to be part of the plan without fully understanding or knowing it all, why would I care what He gets and what I get? All I can say is that I trust God as I understand Him and that I am unafraid to question human wisdom and dogma. To me, my belief that God is real is the only absolute that I have chosen, and the only belief I wont minimize and throw away.

Straggler writes:

But why do you not agree? Weakness of argument? In which case what aspects of the arguments put forwards do you dispute?

I find it uncomfortable when humans are so confidant that they have solved the question so easily and logically. To put it bluntly, I don't trust human wisdom that does not recognize an authority greater than itself. (assuming of course that such an authority exists)

purpledawn writes:

Christianity is a religion that tries to control.

Yes, and I defy human authority by nature. I am the Captain of my own damn ship!

purpledawn writes:

Understand that everything changes with time. Even God.

Peg writes:

Christianity is about 'YOUR' relationship with God. This is something that every single person on earth can have if they want it. It doesnt make us special if we have it, but it does put us in line for everlasting life.

If God foreknows who will and will not choose Him, does this fact not make Him responsible?

ICANT writes:

Phat you know what you believe.

You are just not willing to accept it.

How do you know what I do and do not accept? I just told you I accepted Jesus. Do you expect me to accept the whole Bible without questioning why I accept it? I don't believe in blind faith.

themasterdebator writes:

So then God did not intend the Bible for all people? Only a specific audience and a specific time?

The O.T. is intended mainly for the Jewish Theocratic Kingdom while the N.T. after the Gospels is intended for contemporary folks.

Bluejay writes:

I no longer like to be associated with many religious communities, conventions and ideas. The entire religious atmosphere feels stifling and stagnant, and the learning processes I am taught and expected to subscribe to simply do not make sense to me.

Me too, although I still hold out belief in a supernatural God. To give that up would reduce Christianity to some humanistic do-good philosophy, which is not enough for me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Blue Jay, posted 07-12-2009 10:53 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Phage0070, posted 07-13-2009 1:40 PM Phat has responded
 Message 43 by ICANT, posted 07-14-2009 4:48 PM Phat has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 65 (514859)
07-13-2009 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
07-13-2009 12:46 PM


Re: Synopsis
Phat writes:

(assuming of course that such an authority exists)


And you do assume this, arbitrarily it appears. No matter, you can explain that away through illogical, blind faith...

Phat writes:

I don't believe in blind faith.


Uhh, whaaat? You go on about stuff you believe without evidence and then say you don't believe in blind faith! Are you saying that you have proof that the Holy Spirit lives inside your body as opposed to you having a hallucination?

Phat writes:

...I still hold out belief in a supernatural God. To give that up would reduce Christianity to some humanistic do-good philosophy, which is not enough for me.


What a second Phat, have you completely lost your senses (assuming you had them before)? If Christianity is a humanistic do-good philosophy then it does not cease to be that way if you don't accept it. I can just see you clapping your hands over your ears and tightly closing your eyes chanting "La la la, I can't hear you! My God is great and powerful, and totally exists! I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

The entire standpoint that you have maintained appears to be patently insane. Your willingness to accept something has no bearing on its existence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 07-13-2009 12:46 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 07-15-2009 10:23 AM Phage0070 has not yet responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1115 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 30 of 65 (514861)
07-13-2009 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by caffeine
07-13-2009 6:01 AM


Re: What to Believe
Because several parts of the Bible do contain reference to 'Scripture', so 2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) tells us:

So what is "scripture" to "Paul"? Only those books deemed fit for the canon, to be decided several hundred years hence??? Only the most naive of Christian apologetics can claim that 2 Timothy 3:16 is a reference to the Bible - despite the abject naivity, I do appreciate that it is often done.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by caffeine, posted 07-13-2009 6:01 AM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Prev1
2
345Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017