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Author Topic:   Between A Rock & A Hard Place
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5512
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 31 of 65 (514877)
07-13-2009 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by cavediver
07-12-2009 7:46 PM


Re: What to Believe
How could the Bible itself claim infallibility when none of its components contain any knowledge of its own existence???

When I say "the bible" obviously I am referring to the collection of different books. It's just easier that way.


"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by cavediver, posted 07-12-2009 7:46 PM cavediver has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5512
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 32 of 65 (514878)
07-13-2009 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by purpledawn
07-13-2009 6:15 AM


Re: What to Believe
The Bible doesn't teach. It isn't alive.

I'm sure you understood what I meant.

Which author or authors claim that the other writings within the Bible are infallible?

I could have sworn that it was Jesus and Paul, but after examining the verse I was thinking about for Jesus, he simply said that not one jot or tittle of the law would pass away until all things were accomplished.

As for Paul I thought he spoke more definitively. But 2 Timothy 3 is the only thing that comes close to scriptures being infallible and even then he doesn't distinguish which scriptures since so many were not cannonized.

I stand corrected. It is dogma not scripture.


"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by purpledawn, posted 07-13-2009 6:15 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 33 of 65 (514907)
07-13-2009 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phage0070
07-13-2009 8:44 AM


Phage0070 writes:

So you suggest we shouldn't do what he says for what we can get out of it, but almost in the same breath mention the point of material blessings promised in the future. These concepts seem at odds. Besides, if God isn't going to give blessings now and he isn't going to give blessings later, what possible reason would there be to do what he says? If God was just giving out some helpful tips for living then what is the point of worship, praying, belief in general?

look at it this way

we can live our own life and do what we want and live how we want...we may live a short life and die young, or we may live to be 60, 70 or 80 years if we are lucky, but we are going to die.

or God says :
live how I want you to live, do what i want you to do and you and ill allow you to do it forever without the toil and pain you currently experience in this life. (Deut 30:19)

If you compare the life we have today with the life that God promises in the bible, there is no comparison. Sure, we have to wait for it, and we may even die before it comes....but what does it matter if we are going to die anyway.?

Gods purpose was to have humans living in a perfect paradisaical world where they were to be the caretakers of earth and the animals on it. Life was supposed to continue indefinitely for Adam and Eve but they chose death pain and suffering. Well I didnt choose that, it was imposed upon me and if there is a way out, then i want it.

So while i'll have to wait, im willing to do that because it will be worth the wait.

Phage0070 writes:

And you generally do so by concluding that it means something at odds with what it says. If you are going to ignore the scripture anyway, why read it in the first place?

thats a very good point. the bible should be read with the purpose of understanding 'IT'

not with the purpose of understanding the dogma that's being taught.
For instance, we hear the word 'hell' thrown around a lot by the church. They tell us that its where you;'ll go to suffer if you sin.

However, the word in the bible that is translated as 'hell' means no such place. The hebrew word simply means the common grave of mankind, the hole in the ground into which we are buried when we die.
So why are they teaching that hell is place of fiery torment where souls are burned with fire forever???

its not what the bible says. The churchs have not remained true to what the bible says...they have twisted the scriptures to preach their own dogma.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phage0070, posted 07-13-2009 8:44 AM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phage0070, posted 07-13-2009 10:38 PM Peg has responded
 Message 40 by Perdition, posted 07-14-2009 12:46 PM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 42 by ICANT, posted 07-14-2009 4:39 PM Peg has responded

    
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 65 (514913)
07-13-2009 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Peg
07-13-2009 9:55 PM


Peg writes:

So while i'll have to wait, im willing to do that because it will be worth the wait.


So in other words you are doing it to avoid the curse God inflicted on Adam and Eve: "Do what I say or I'll kill you (eventually, after some torture)." You are doing it PRECISELY for what you can get out of it. (Oh, and you cannot avoid the torture even though you don't deserve it.)

Peg writes:

thats a very good point. the bible should be read with the purpose of understanding 'IT'


No Peg, I said "why read it in the first place?" If you are simply going to reject those parts you don't already agree with, then you cannot gain anything from the reading that you don't already believe and accept. Besides, if "IT" is so anxious for you to learn about it then why does it not talk to you directly? That would seem to eliminate the need for a Bible in the first place, it is hard to get more convenient than on-demand telepathy. The fact that the sects cannot seem to agree puts the entire concept in a poor light from the start!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 9:55 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 11:07 PM Phage0070 has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 35 of 65 (514918)
07-13-2009 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phage0070
07-13-2009 10:38 PM


Phage0070 writes:

So in other words you are doing it to avoid the curse God inflicted on Adam and Eve: "Do what I say or I'll kill you (eventually, after some torture)." You are doing it PRECISELY for what you can get out of it. (Oh, and you cannot avoid the torture even though you don't deserve it.)

God inflicted nothing on A&E. They inflicted it on themselves by choosing to be independent.

He told them the consequences, but they chose it anyway. He wasnt going to force them to be obedient, he gave them the choice.

Why does that make him the baddy?

Phage0070 writes:


No Peg, I said "why read it in the first place?" If you are simply going to reject those parts you don't already agree with, then you cannot gain anything from the reading that you don't already believe and accept. Besides, if "IT" is so anxious for you to learn about it then why does it not talk to you directly? That would seem to eliminate the need for a Bible in the first place, it is hard to get more convenient than on-demand telepathy. The fact that the sects cannot seem to agree puts the entire concept in a poor light from the start!

now you're just being silly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phage0070, posted 07-13-2009 10:38 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phage0070, posted 07-13-2009 11:18 PM Peg has responded

    
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 65 (514919)
07-13-2009 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Peg
07-13-2009 11:07 PM


Peg writes:

God inflicted nothing on A&E. They inflicted it on themselves by choosing to be independent.


quote:
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
- Genesis 3:22-24



The serpent never lied, the tree did not kill them it did exactly what the serpent said it would. It was God who lied. Once they gained knowledge from the tree they were capable of eating from the tree of life and becoming immortal like God, and specifically to prevent this God sent them out of the garden.

God never intended humans to live forever, and he lied to prevent humans from finding out the secret and once they did he sent his lackeys with flaming swords to prevent it. God hates you and wants you to die; what is so hard to understand about that?

Peg writes:

now you're just being silly.


Yet another flawless rebuttal from Peg, how am I to counter such a retort?

Oh yes, ahem: "I know you are, but what am I?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 11:07 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Peg, posted 07-14-2009 2:46 AM Phage0070 has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 37 of 65 (514925)
07-14-2009 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phage0070
07-13-2009 11:18 PM


Phage0070 writes:

The serpent never lied, the tree did not kill them it did exactly what the serpent said it would. It was God who lied. Once they gained knowledge from the tree they were capable of eating from the tree of life and becoming immortal like God, and specifically to prevent this God sent them out of the garden.

According to Jesus, the serpent lied. he called Satan "a liar and the the father of the Lie"

And A&E did die, we know that for a certainty.

Phage0070 writes:

God never intended humans to live forever, and he lied to prevent humans from finding out the secret and once they did he sent his lackeys with flaming swords to prevent it. God hates you and wants you to die; what is so hard to understand about that?

LOL

he could have just done away with A&E and Satan so he had no opposers, and no one to question him or accuse him of something that is obviously false.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phage0070, posted 07-13-2009 11:18 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phage0070, posted 07-14-2009 7:00 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 39 by purpledawn, posted 07-14-2009 7:51 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 65 (514934)
07-14-2009 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Peg
07-14-2009 2:46 AM


Peg writes:

According to Jesus, the serpent lied. he called Satan "a liar and the the father of the Lie"


Yeah, he would, given that he or his father was the one who told the lie (the relationship there is kinda fuzzy). Seriously, if your best argument against someone lying is their word, you are not really sharp on the whole deception bit.

Peg writes:

And A&E did die, we know that for a certainty.


No, we are not really sure they ever existed in the first place. But the story tells us that God specifically prevented them from attaining eternal life which would have happened if he had not intervened, so basically God killed them. He did it because they were improving themselves and were going to become like gods, and because he is a jealous god he could have no competition. So basically he killed Adam and Eve out of jealousy.

Peg writes:

he could have just done away with A&E and Satan so he had no opposers, and no one to question him or accuse him of something that is obviously false.


Well, he did just that. He sent Adam, Eve, and Lucifer away, and the first two specifically so they would not be competition for him. He does not want them gone completely, he wants them to suffer and die for whatever reason.

If God wanted people to live forever, why would he specifically say that he did not want them to live forever and actively work against it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Peg, posted 07-14-2009 2:46 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 930 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 39 of 65 (514936)
07-14-2009 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Peg
07-14-2009 2:46 AM


How can you say in Message 33:

Peg writes:

the bible should be read with the purpose of understanding 'IT'

not with the purpose of understanding the dogma that's being taught.

and then turn around and say:

Peg writes:

According to Jesus, the serpent lied. he called Satan "a liar and the the father of the Lie"

Assuming you are talking about John 8:44, Jesus did not say the snake in the Garden lied to Eve. He also didn't say that Satan was a liar in that verse. Dogma has lumped Satan and the Devil together.

Diabolos means prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely. Since a diabolos is someone who is prone to false statements or lies, what better word to personify than diabolos as the father of the lie?

This is what causes confusion. Our English translations are set up to support dogma, not necessarily what the writer's wrote. This makes it more difficult for the average person to discern what the writer's in the Bible were trying to tell their audience and whether these writings truly support what the clergy or evangelists present as doctrine.

I agree the writings of the Bible should be read to understand what the writer's were trying to tell their target audiences. It should not be read in the light of tradition and dogma of the present. Your posts seem to waffle between the two.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Peg, posted 07-14-2009 2:46 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 710 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 40 of 65 (514957)
07-14-2009 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Peg
07-13-2009 9:55 PM


we can live our own life and do what we want and live how we want...we may live a short life and die young, or we may live to be 60, 70 or 80 years if we are lucky, but we are going to die.

or God says :
live how I want you to live, do what i want you to do and you and ill allow you to do it forever without the toil and pain you currently experience in this life. (Deut 30:19)

Shades pf Pascall here. Buddhists say the same thing, but what you have to do is different. What if they're right and you're wrong and now you're stuck in a cycle of pain and suffering?

If you compare the life we have today with the life that God promises in the bible, there is no comparison. Sure, we have to wait for it, and we may even die before it comes....but what does it matter if we are going to die anyway.?

God promises a life you may not recieve, but the promise is so great that you have to follow it? This is the ultimate rat experiment: "We'll promise them something so amazingly good that they'll do anything to get it, but never actually give it to them so we can control what they do."

Jesus said it would come before the people in front of him were dead. It hasn't come yet, why are you still holding your breath, it's beginning to look like it's not coming.

Life was supposed to continue indefinitely for Adam and Eve but they chose death pain and suffering. Well I didnt choose that, it was imposed upon me and if there is a way out, then i want it.

Exactly, you didn't choose it, you had no say in it what so ever, yet you suffer the punishment. That sounds like a very benevolent, loving father figure who in no way wants you to suffer or die, doesn't it?

So while i'll have to wait, im willing to do that because it will be worth the wait.

No, you've been told it will be worth the wait, and you hope it will be worth the wait, but there is no proff, and the wait may be forever. Sounds great to me.

"If you do as I say, you'll get a brand new shiny car that runs forever, doesn't pollute, doesn't need gas or oil, never needs a tune-up, and can fly or drive underwater. It always stays at a comfortable temperature and the safety features are so good you'll never get hurt or hurt anyone else. All you have to do is do exactly what I say for the rest of your life.
Disclaimer, you may not actually recieve this prize. All risks are the sole responsibility of the participant."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 9:55 PM Peg has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Woodsy, posted 07-14-2009 4:35 PM Perdition has responded

    
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 846 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 41 of 65 (514994)
07-14-2009 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Perdition
07-14-2009 12:46 PM


This discussion reminds me of the "Kissing Hank's Ass" screed.

If you haven't seen it, a quick google will find it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Perdition, posted 07-14-2009 12:46 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 42 of 65 (514996)
07-14-2009 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Peg
07-13-2009 9:55 PM


Re Hell
Hi Peg,

Peg writes:

So why are they teaching that hell is place of fiery torment where souls are burned with fire forever??? its not what the bible says. The churchs have not remained true to what the bible says...they have twisted the scriptures to preach their own dogma.

Peg they keep getting hell mixed up with their final resting place.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Verse 15 tells you who will be in the lake of fire.

God Bless,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 9:55 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Peg, posted 07-15-2009 8:39 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 43 of 65 (515000)
07-14-2009 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
07-13-2009 12:46 PM


Re: Synopsis
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

How do you know what I do and do not accept?

Simple you have told me many times.

You may believe but you have never committed proven by your own testimony.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 07-13-2009 12:46 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 07-15-2009 10:25 AM ICANT has responded

    
Perdition
Member (Idle past 710 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 44 of 65 (515012)
07-14-2009 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Woodsy
07-14-2009 4:35 PM


This discussion reminds me of the "Kissing Hank's Ass" screed.

I'm a big fan of both the written and video forms of that story. I wouldn't call it a screed. Thank you for putting up with some of the best satire on religion I know of. You honor me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Woodsy, posted 07-14-2009 4:35 PM Woodsy has not yet responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2402 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 45 of 65 (515057)
07-15-2009 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by ICANT
07-14-2009 4:39 PM


Re: Re Hell
ICANT writes:

Verse 15 tells you who will be in the lake of fire.

so what does it mean that 'death' and 'hell' is cast into the lake of fire?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ICANT, posted 07-14-2009 4:39 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ICANT, posted 07-15-2009 10:54 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
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