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Author Topic:   Between A Rock & A Hard Place
Phat
Member
Posts: 10080
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 46 of 66 (515076)
07-15-2009 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phage0070
07-13-2009 1:40 PM


Re: Synopsis
Phage0070 writes:

Your willingness to accept something has no bearing on its existence.

Keep in mind, however, that your passion to deny something also has no bearing on its existence.

I will grant that God cannot be proven, yet would be cognizant about confidently proclaiming His non-existence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phage0070, posted 07-13-2009 1:40 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10080
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 47 of 66 (515077)
07-15-2009 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by ICANT
07-14-2009 4:48 PM


Re: Synopsis
I CANT writes:

You may believe but you have never committed proven by your own testimony.

Because to me, your idea of commit means to no longer ask questions. You expect me to take a leap of faith and no longer question anything about Dogma or tradition.

Trust me, when I first got "saved" I never questioned anything. God has since prompted me that its OK to do so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ICANT, posted 07-14-2009 4:48 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by ICANT, posted 07-15-2009 11:32 AM Phat has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 48 of 66 (515080)
07-15-2009 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Peg
07-15-2009 8:39 AM


Re: Hell
Hi Peg,

Peg writes:

so what does it mean that 'death' and 'hell' is cast into the lake of fire?

It just means that no matter how you or anyone else gets it mixed up there is a final place of separation.

The Lake of Fire is the final resting place of the devil and his angels and all those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of Life. A name gets written in that book when a person is born again.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There is no place left to hide.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Peg, posted 07-15-2009 8:39 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 49 of 66 (515086)
07-15-2009 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
07-15-2009 10:25 AM


Re: Synopsis
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

Because to me, your idea of commit means to no longer ask questions. You expect me to take a leap of faith and no longer question anything about Dogma or tradition.

Trust me, when I first got "saved" I never questioned anything. God has since prompted me that its OK to do so.

With all my wild beliefs I have put forth over my time here on EvC you should know by now that I question everything except the existence of God, what He says, and what He can and will do.

The things listed below I do not question because the Scripture says:
In Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

God created everything that there is. Genesis 1:1
God said He loved me.
God came to earth in the form of a man called Jesus and died on the cross so I could have eternal life.
God said He would save me if I trust Him to do so all I had to do was receive the free full pardon He offered.
I trusted God to save me and give me eternal life.
God said He would prepare a place for me and would come get me one day so I could be where He is for eternity.
I believe God did what He said He would do.

You are questioning everything except the existence of God and Jesus.

If you notice Heb. 11:6 does not give you an option of believing or not believing.

It says you "MUST BELIEVE" that "God IS"

It says you "MUST BELIEVE" that "God IS" a "REWARDER" of them that "diligently SEEK HIM"

Phat writes:

Trust me, when I first got "saved" I never questioned anything.

Maybe you should have questioned whether you had an emotion encounter or a real experience of accepting God's pardon.

I would suggest that you do that now.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 07-15-2009 10:25 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 07-16-2009 4:43 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 54 by purpledawn, posted 07-17-2009 1:27 PM ICANT has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10080
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 50 of 66 (515248)
07-16-2009 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ICANT
07-15-2009 11:32 AM


Questions,Doubts, and Conclusions
I CANT writes:

The things listed below I do not question because the Scripture says:
In Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

So I take it you never dare to question scripture. What makes you so sure it is inerrant?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ICANT, posted 07-15-2009 11:32 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2009 9:32 PM Phat has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 51 of 66 (515268)
07-16-2009 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
07-16-2009 4:43 PM


Re: Questions,Doubts, and Conclusions
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

So I take it you never dare to question scripture. What makes you so sure it is inerrant?

What part of my list did you not understand?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 07-16-2009 4:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 07-17-2009 10:28 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 53 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-17-2009 12:31 PM ICANT has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10080
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 52 of 66 (515329)
07-17-2009 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by ICANT
07-16-2009 9:32 PM


Re: Questions,Doubts, and Conclusions
Please clarify. I asked you what was so wrong with questioning scripture. First of all, how can we be so sure that scripture is inerrant?

After all, God knows me better than I know myself. I highly doubt whether God would be angry at me for using my brain.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2009 9:32 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2009 9:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 5512
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 53 of 66 (515359)
07-17-2009 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ICANT
07-16-2009 9:32 PM


Re: Questions,Doubts, and Conclusions
quote:
So I take it you never dare to question scripture. What makes you so sure it is inerrant?

What part of my list did you not understand?

A: It's in the bible, therefore it is true.

Q How do you know God's word is inerrant?

A: Because God said so in his word.

Do you see how that is circular?

And about faith, obviously God does understand something beyond faith or he wouldn't have made two thirds of the bible prophecy which are ways to prove himself. It's not about just believing, because Islam requires the same thing.

Faith alone, particularly blind faith, seems useless without something initially verifying or prompting one to believe in the first place.

This is all learned from an early age. If you had no prior knowledge about God, you'd be no different than any other pagan, right? So obviously a measure of proof is required to get you started. Evidence has to precede faith.


"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2009 9:32 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2009 9:52 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1050 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 54 of 66 (515366)
07-17-2009 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ICANT
07-15-2009 11:32 AM


Who is It?
quote:
If you notice Heb. 11:6 does not give you an option of believing or not believing.

It says you "MUST BELIEVE" that "God IS"

It says you "MUST BELIEVE" that "God IS" a "REWARDER" of them that "diligently SEEK HIM"


You're saying that the unknown writer of the letter to the Hebrews tells us that we don't have an option to believe or not believe in God's existence. I disagree.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him for he that cometh to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him

The statement is common sense. A person who didn't believe God existed wouldn't go to God or worry about pleasing him. It really isn't telling us anything that isn't obvious. It's not telling us we must trust everything told to us about God.

The writer, like many religious writers, is trying to give Christianity a shot in the arm.

The Epistle to the Hebrews - Goodspeed
They must be shown the immense value of the religion they had come to take as a matter of course, and they must be told how awful the consequences of renouncing it would be. Apathy must be cured and apostasy prevented.

It is obvious that one must believe in a god's existence before one can intentionally approach a god, but one doesn't have to believe everything said about any specific god.

That's what we deal with when it comes to dogma, tradition, and the writer's of the Bible. Religious teachers and writers do try to make believers feel they aren't allowed to question the doctrine presented.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ICANT, posted 07-15-2009 11:32 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2009 10:02 PM purpledawn has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 55 of 66 (515435)
07-17-2009 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
07-17-2009 10:28 AM


Re: Questions,Doubts, and Conclusions
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

Please clarify. I asked you what was so wrong with questioning scripture. First of all, how can we be so sure that scripture is inerrant?

Phat I gave a list of things I don't question. But nobody can even read them.

Here is the list again.

God created everything that there is. Genesis 1:1
God said He loved me.
God came to earth in the form of a man called Jesus and died on the cross so I could have eternal life.
God said He would save me if I trust Him to do so all I had to do was receive the free full pardon He offered.
I trusted God to save me and give me eternal life.
God said He would prepare a place for me and would come get me one day so I could be where He is for eternity.
I believe God did what He said He would do.

Now as far as the scriptures we have being inerrant not a chance there have been too many people involved in copying it. Just look at how many bibles that have been translated in the last 50 years.

I do believe that the original word of God was inerrant. Too bad we don't have it today.

When it comes to questioning I guess you have never read any of my posts concerning the Bible.

I start in Genesis 1:1 and immediately question the placing of Genesis 1:2 it should not follow Genesis 1:1.

Genesis 2:4 should follow Genesis 1:1 as it says:

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Generations is nothing but a history, or account of.

That verse claims to be the history of Genesis 1:1.

It is not the history or account of the events that took place in the 7 days in Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 2:3.

So yes I question everything except those in my list.

A born again child of God can not and will not question those. A religious person, or someone who has repeated a prayer after someone might question them.

I even believe in a flat earth with 4 corners just look at my avatar. That is what it looked like in Genesis 1:9.

As you know I am a pastor and I even encourage my people to ask questions at anytime. It is allowed during any message but they learned not to ask a question after about 10 minutes until 12 because I will take as long as necessary to answer the question.

Phat I tell my people to not believe a word I say unless it is confirmed by the Bible and the Holy Spirit.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 07-17-2009 10:28 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 56 of 66 (515437)
07-17-2009 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Hyroglyphx
07-17-2009 12:31 PM


Re: Questions,Doubts, and Conclusions
Hi Hyrog,

Hyroglyphx writes:

Faith alone, particularly blind faith, seems useless without something initially verifying or prompting one to believe in the first place.

Firstly I don't have any faith of my own blind or otherwise.

I heard the gospel. John 3:16 17, 18.

Something in my mind convinced me those words were true and I accepted them and received the free full pardon offered by God. At the same time He sent the Holy Spirit to seal and assure me that I had been accepted. He gave me all the faith I have ever needed at that moment.

Hyroglyphx writes:

This is all learned from an early age.

And from Godly parents.

My problem was that when I was 2 my mom and dad separated and my dad and grandmother raised me. At that time neither was saved. If fact both were saved after I had been saved several years.

In the fourty's there was not much to do on the farm for about 6 months out of the year. We had a battery radio that grandpa would listen to the news on. There was no TV, no phones, not even electricity.

I had a passion for reading but the problem was there was only one book in the house. It was an old KJV Bible so I read it and by the time I was nine I had read through it 2 times. So when I heard the preacher preach the words were familiar to me but the Holy Spirit made them much more.

I went home went to bed and went to sleep but sometime during the night I woke up. August 18, 1949 I made a decision to put my trust in God from that time until this He has provided everything I have ever needed.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-17-2009 12:31 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 57 of 66 (515438)
07-17-2009 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by purpledawn
07-17-2009 1:27 PM


Re: Who is It?
Hi Dawn,

Purpledawn writes:

You're saying that the unknown writer of the letter to the Hebrews tells us that we don't have an option to believe or not believe in God's existence. I disagree.

I believe the writter was Paul but that is neither here or there. The book of Hebrews was written to a specific group of born again believers. It was not written to everybody in general.

The verse I quoated that you requoted says it is impossible to please God.

So if you want to be born again and spend eternity with God.

quote:
It says you "MUST BELIEVE" that "God IS"

It says you "MUST BELIEVE" that "God IS" a "REWARDER" of them that "diligently SEEK HIM"


You don't have an option.

Purpledawn writes:

Religious teachers and writers do try to make believers feel they aren't allowed to question the doctrine presented.

My congregation can question anything I teach and my people do.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by purpledawn, posted 07-17-2009 1:27 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by purpledawn, posted 07-18-2009 12:33 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1050 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 58 of 66 (515507)
07-18-2009 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by ICANT
07-17-2009 10:02 PM


Re: Who is It?
quote:
The book of Hebrews was written to a specific group of born again believers. It was not written to everybody in general.
I agree. It was written for a specific audience at a specific time.

quote:
The verse I quoated that you requoted says it is impossible to please God.
No the writer said without faith it is impossible to please God. Common sense. Hard to please what one doesn't believe to exist.

As the writer says at the beginning of the chapter: Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

quote:
It says you "MUST BELIEVE" that "God IS"

It says you "MUST BELIEVE" that "God IS" a "REWARDER" of them that "diligently SEEK HIM"


The writer says that those who come to God must believe that he is, etc.

Again common sense. If one doesn't believe that something exists, they don't seek it.

11:39-40
These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

IOW, the writer had to rejuvenate the religion since the kingdom hadn't come as expected and reboot the apocalyptic enthusiasm.

Edgar Goodspeed
Forty years had now passed since Paul had written Romans. The Roman church was in its second generation. Roman Christians had grown up in the faith. It had been familiar to them from childhood. Most of them had never known any other. They came of Christian parents and had never thought of being anything but Christians. But the primitive apocalyptic expectations had waned. The great distinctive values of Christianity had grown dim. The early enthusiasm had evaporated. Christianity was coming to be an old story. Apathy was pervading the church.

The writer is imitating Paul's writing style which means he is building to a point.

12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

The writer then moves on to basically say hang tough and keep behaving.

12:7 Endure hardship as discipline:...
12:14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

IOW, the writer wants the people trust that God will come through with the promises.

quote:
My congregation can question anything I teach and my people do.My congregation can question anything I teach and my people do.
Just as we have the right to question the writer of Hebrews.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2009 10:02 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10080
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 59 of 66 (718065)
02-04-2014 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Straggler
07-11-2009 6:33 PM


Prayer as Therapy
Straggler writes:

If praying is a road only to your own beliefs then how is praying going to do anything other than re-inforce your already held beliefs by confirming them?

I look at prayer this way: It causes me to open my mind and heart to a voice,belief, or unction that is contrary to my own. For instance, say I have an ongoing fight with an adversary. Perhaps I believe this adversary to be evil---perhaps not--but at the very least I despise this adversary and seek to win any and all future encounters with them.
In my prayer, I ask God to help me...and I also find myself praying to see things from the adversarial point of view. Intuitively I know that this is the best way to solve the subtle diplomacy of resolution with this adversary.

Looked at another way, its almost as if in order to defeat Satan we almost have to see how he thinks and why he thinks the way he does. upon deeper examination, I have often found that satan is simply my own ego within me...seeking to dominate another person. Prayer could be seen to be a form of meditative introspection. God is simply the therapist...prodding us to go deeper within ourselves and asking questions that give us the opportunity to confront our biases and prejudices.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Straggler, posted 07-11-2009 6:33 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10080
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 60 of 66 (814654)
07-11-2017 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
07-11-2009 10:06 AM


Between A Rock & A Hard Place Remix
2009 Phat writes:

I don't even know what I believe anymore, except that I know that I DO believe that Jesus is alive, was and is Gods character and died for all of our collective sins and imperfections. I have no problems with Jesus or with God. I DO have problems with the Bible being inerrant (without any mistakes, errors, or human goofs) chiefly because it just doesn't make sense to me.
My critics tell me that my brand of Christianity is flawed because it implies that some people are special. Chosen. Set apart from the rest of humanity. They hint at the fact that this idea is actually a doctrine of humans who sought to control others through this belief.

Additionally, I have been told by more than a few educated scientifically minded critical thinkers that the idea of a Young Earth, a Global Flood, and a literal Talking Snake are just too ridiculous to be embraced by any rational thinker. They hint at the idea that I should question the reasons behind believing in a perfect Bible when evidence clearly shows the Bible and the characters contained within are the fodder of a story and not of actual facts.

Of course, they question Jesus divinity as well and I simply will NOT go there.

They have me thinking, though. I DO believe that God expects me to think and to question everything that I am taught, and I DO believe that God won't hold it against me for doing so.

The flip side of this is that I also don't believe them when they go so far as to say that religion is all man-made and that the stories are less than perfect. Like I said, I don't know whether to be on one side, the other side, or no side at all. I just know that I need to pray and allow the Holy Spirit to help me sort it all out.

That was in 2009. I have learned a lot since then, but my beliefs remain at roughly the same level. I am more skeptical of organized religion and of teachings than I used to be, however. I DO believe that if i pray for wisdom I will receive it, however.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2017 2:21 PM Phat has responded

  
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