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Author Topic:   Sin
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 153 (516383)
07-24-2009 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by ICANT
07-24-2009 6:20 PM


Re: Sin
ICANT writes:

I have to you. It is found in John 3:18.


Then tell me why it requires a real, physical event that affect other people in order for it to be a sin? What is that real, physical event?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2009 6:20 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Rahvin, posted 07-24-2009 7:13 PM Phage0070 has responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 632 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 137 of 153 (516387)
07-24-2009 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Phage0070
07-24-2009 6:53 PM


Re: Sin
Then tell me why it requires a real, physical event that affect other people in order for it to be a sin? What is that real, physical event?

...I don't see where ICANT has ever made such a claim. I think you may be attacking a strawman.

ICANT does not claim that specific actions of any sort are sins - disobedience to God is a sin. Thus murder, theft, eating meat on Friday, or planting flowers in your yard can be sinful or not sinful depending on God's instruction.

The "unforgivable sin" of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit seems to be, in ICANT's view, ending your life denying God's existence and rejecting his offer of a full free pardon. Basically, allsins are pardonable and forgivable so long as you accept the gift of forgiveness.

Jesus instructed that even thinking lustfully about a woman is sinful because you disobey God's commandment against adultery in your heart. There's no physical act necessarily involved.

That about right, ICANT?

The idea that a sin must be a physical act that has a specifically detrimental effect on other people is not the Christian concept of sin. You're thinking about a very different, non-authoritarian, practicality-based system of ethics. The "love thy neighbor" and related commandments ensure that the two have a lot of overlap, but they aren't the same at all. Even the idea that God's commandments are intended to be what we would consider ethical (ie, reducing net harm to others, etc) is not Biblical.

The concept of sin is amorally authoritarian. It can resemble morality when the authority figure gives certain instructions (thou shalt not kill/steal/lie/etc), and can appear to be immoral when the authority figure gives other commands (kill all the firstborn). It's all about doing what God says, period. Disobedience to those commands is sin, whether that matches a reasonable system of ethics or not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Phage0070, posted 07-24-2009 6:53 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Phage0070, posted 07-24-2009 7:25 PM Rahvin has responded
 Message 140 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2009 7:55 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 153 (516390)
07-24-2009 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Rahvin
07-24-2009 7:13 PM


Re: Sin
Rahvin writes:

...I don't see where ICANT has ever made such a claim. I think you may be attacking a strawman.


ICANT writes:

Sin (bad things) does have real consequences.
...
Yes sin has real consequences.
- Message 114


It is just buried under several posts of "Whaat? I don't know what you are talking about."

Rahvin writes:

The idea that a sin must be a physical act that has a specifically detrimental effect on other people is not the Christian concept of sin.


No, I am asking what real consequence the specific act of unforgivable sin will have. I don't think that ICANT will be able to provide a real consequence, rather he/she will provide an imaginary one.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Rahvin, posted 07-24-2009 7:13 PM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Rahvin, posted 07-24-2009 7:29 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 632 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 139 of 153 (516392)
07-24-2009 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Phage0070
07-24-2009 7:25 PM


Re: Sin
No, I am asking what real consequence the specific act of unforgivable sin will have. I don't think that ICANT will be able to provide a real consequence, rather he/she will provide an imaginary one.

Semantics. ICANT believes his lake of fire to be real, ergo it is a "real consequence" to him. Granting for the sake of argument that ICANT's beliefs accurately reflect reality, sin does have consequences.

The problem is that the consequences are supposed to happen after we die. Rather difficult to get independent confirmation

Oh, and ICANT - sorry about the sig, but I couldn't resist.


"You were doing OK until you started to think."
-ICANT
This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Phage0070, posted 07-24-2009 7:25 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2009 8:40 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5619
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 140 of 153 (516406)
07-24-2009 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Rahvin
07-24-2009 7:13 PM


Re: Sin
Hi Rahvin,

Rahvin writes:

The "unforgivable sin" of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit seems to be, in ICANT's view, ending your life denying God's existence and rejecting his offer of a full free pardon. Basically, allsins are pardonable and forgivable so long as you accept the gift of forgiveness.

That about right, ICANT?

I couldn't have said it better thanks Rahvin.

It is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict mankind of their spiritual condition. He does try to convict everyone at some point in their life.

So if you keep saying no to Him you will eventually die under the penalty placed on all mankind when the first man disobey God and eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Rahvin, posted 07-24-2009 7:13 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5619
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 141 of 153 (516416)
07-24-2009 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Rahvin
07-24-2009 7:29 PM


Re: Sin
Hi Rahvin,

Rahvin writes:

Oh, and ICANT - sorry about the sig, but I couldn't resist.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You were doing OK until you started to think."
-ICANT

Sorry I can't take credit for the saying. Catholic Scientist said that to me about a year and a half ago.

Rahvin writes:

Semantics. ICANT believes his lake of fire to be real, ergo it is a "real consequence" to him. Granting for the sake of argument that ICANT's beliefs accurately reflect reality, sin does have consequences.

Actually you don't have to do anything to end up in the lake of fire.
The verse of scripture I quoted to Phage0700 John 3:18 said mankind is condemned already. So it doesn't make any difference what I believe about it.

It is a sin to drink and drive. God has nothing to do with that being a sin. It is law enforced by our justice system.

If a man comits that sin and ends up killing himself and someone else there are dire consequences to that sin.

I know a 6 year old young lady who was in her grandparents back seat stoped at a traffic light with about 20 cars between them and the light. A young woman of 40 had a rough day at the office and stopped by the bar for a couple of drinks. She then proceeded home and she never slowed down when she cam up behind Joe's car. She hit it doing in excess of 60 mph. The then 3 year old had to be taken to the hospital in air ambulance. Over 2 million dollars have been spent trying to correct all the problems she has but part of her brain is missing. So millions more will be spent in her lifetime to take care of her. So don't tell me sin does not have real consequences. I am sure you know of many stories just like this one.

BTW Her blood alcohol level was twice what the state of Florida allows 8 hours after the accident as it took that long to get a Judges order to draw the blood.

Then again on further review maybe God did have something to do with that law because through Solomon He said:

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Somebody might have read that and incorporated into our laws.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Rahvin, posted 07-24-2009 7:29 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

    
Bailey
Member (Idle past 1815 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 142 of 153 (518936)
08-09-2009 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Blue Jay
07-15-2009 7:45 AM


Re: Crouching Tiger ... Hidden Dragon
Thanks for the exchange Bluejay.
Apologies for the delay ...
Hope all is well for you.

Bluejay writes:

weary writes:

In this way, the passages have, most often, been glossed over as though that is all there is to learn: offering the Father vegetables is a sin. It is at this point that one may consider in what way an offering towards the Father of vegetables, as opposed to livestock offerings, may be sinful ... if at all.


I don't think you quite said what about Cain's sacrifice you think was the sin. If you did, I missed it.

I didn't say there was anything sinful about Cain's offering (he made no sacrifice). The scripture text does not indicate that there was anything sinful about the vegetables either, which was more my point. It is simply expressed to the reader that the Father was 'not pleased' with Cain and his offering.

However, when verse 4:3 is placed back in context with verse 4:7, there are very strong indications that, at this point in the story, sin had yet to occur.

quote:
4:3 At the designated time Cain brought some of the fruit of the ground for an offering to the Lord.
4:4 But Abel brought some of the firstborn of his flock – even the fattest of them. And the Lord was pleased with Abel and his offering,
4:5 but with Cain and his offering he was not pleased. So Cain became very angry, and his expression was downcast.

In the story of the two offerings, it is as if Cain is being tested. There is the sense that he fails; but not, as he presumes, because the Father prefers Abel's offering over his. His failure, rather, seems to dwell within his inability, or perhaps disinterest, to distinguish between disapproval and rejection.

Offering vegetables, alone, does not appear to constitute sin. Furthermore, being angry, alone, does not appear to constitute sin according to Genesis.

However, this anger and resentment appears to be a catalyst of sorts which may soon incite the crouching one if left to its own devices.

Cain had not yet sinned, according to my understanding of scripture, as 'sin' was only 'crouching at the door' at this point in the story, desiring and awaiting to dominate him. Before sin occurs - yet, after the vegetable offering - Cain is encouraged by the Father to subdue the sin that is patiently awaiting him ...

quote:
4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why is your expression downcast?
4:7 Is it not true that if you do what is right, you will be fine? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door. It desires to dominate you, but you must subdue it
."

So, it may become relatively clear that whatever actions Cain has crouching at the door embody his sin, rather than the unpleasing vegetable offering.

Yet, if the man has not yet sinned, then what are the specific actions crouching at Cain's door which may easily constitute such an accusation ...

quote:
4:8 Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.

Murder!! Murdering and ...

quote:
4:9 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?” And he replied, “I don’t know! Am I my brother’s guardian?”

Lying!! Reasonably, greedy, murdererin' liars are certainly more sinful than honest farmhands.

I am no priest - that is for sure. Yet, I will go out on a limb and assert that growing brussel sprouts is not a sin. However, being thankless for them, or behaving as if you are the primary factor responsible for their fruition seems a bit rude. This is the type of arrogance I sense from Cain.

Does Cain perceive that working, giving & sharing can be more beneficial, and more pleasing to the Father, than working, hoarding & competing?

I think most Mormons think there was something wrong with Cain's attitude towards the sacrifice, but I still don't get it.

There does appear to be some difficulty discerning the issue when those who are supposed to guide the learning process are so frequently gehinnom-bent on relegating Cain's vegetable offering as akin to denying the identification of Joshua's murder as a necessary Levitical animal sacrifice. This is most always accomplished, or at least attempted, through sleight of hand by projecting Able's offering, which makes no mention of blood - direct or otherwise, as the mechanism of the Father's appeasement, rather than Able's charitable heart. This is a syncretic doctrine that, although often promoted in Levitical circles, is directly and repeatedly confronted throughout the various canonized Prophetic booklets. Hoshea speaks to this directly at verse six, in the sixth chapter of his booklet ... "For the Father delights in faithfulness, not in sacrifice; the Father delights in acknowledging virtue, not in whole burnt offerings."

quote:
NIV ©

biblegateway Hos 6:6

For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

NASB ©

biblegateway Hos 6:6

For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

NLT ©

biblegateway Hos 6:6

I want you to be merciful; I don’t want your sacrifices. I want you to know God; that’s more important than burnt offerings.

MSG ©

biblegateway Hos 6:6

I'm after love that lasts, not more religion. I want you to know GOD, not go to more prayer meetings.

BBE ©

SABDAweb Hos 6:6

Because my desire is for mercy and not offerings; for the knowledge of God more than for burned offerings.

NRSV ©

bibleoremus Hos 6:6

For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

NKJV ©

biblegateway Hos 6:6

For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.


Of course, as can be evidenced by the continuous murders of the Prophets, the stifling and attempted absorption of their writings, as well as the free market capitalistic selling of their blood, Hoshea's criticism is in staunch contrast to Levitical doctrine, which demands the perfection of blood sacrifice.

For the subscribers to the Levite priesthood, nothing is more integral than that sweet & juicy blood sacrifice, least of all, acknowledging anything virtuous.

When putting aside the conjecture of precontrived dogma, it may become easier to consider whether it was indeed Cain's attitude - or 'countenance', that was found lacking in virtue. While the reader is given no indication of Cain's attitude towards charity initially, it is quickly disclosed that Cain is indeed the type that will murder you and then bold faced lie about it. So, is one supposed to think of him as a cheerful giver apart from those other minor blemishes?

Cain offered some of his vegetables and Able offered the first of his flock. Cain offered some of his vegetables and Able offered the fattest of his flock. The possibility that the Father may have been pleased with the first and fattest vegetable crops, providing Cain offered them with gladness in his heart, remains open to consideration. That his decision to murder and lie was classified as sin is not left to debate.

While considering the Yom Kippur periscope in Leviticus 16, there is the sense that, with Cain and Able being the first two born, they may naturally represent two distinct archetypes of priests; Anointed and otherwise. In that portion of scripture text (Lev. 16:7-10, 21-22) the reader should find that ...

* there was a High Priest to carry out the service.
(perhaps akin to the Almighty Father)

* there were two goats used for the atonement of Yisrael.
(perhaps akin to Able/Yudah/Yeshua and Cain/Levite/Vicar)

* one was presented as a typical sacrifice which was known as The LORD’s Goat.
(perhaps akin to Able/Yuhdah/Yeshua)

* one was presented alive to be banished into the wilderness which was known as Azazel (the Scapegoat).
(perhaps akin to Cain/Levite/Vicar)

* the High Priest would cast lots to determine which goat was to be sacrificed and which would be presented alive.
(perhaps akin to the Father's pleasure)

* the LORD’s Goat would be sacrificed first.
(perhaps akin to Cain/Levite/Vicar envy and willingness to murder)

* then the High Priest would transfer the sins of all of Yisrael on to the head of Azazel.
(perhaps akin to the sentence imposed on Cain/Levite/Vicar)

* then Azazel would be banished into the wilderness to die.
(perhaps akin to Cain/Levite/Vicar destiny)

One may even debate whether Cain/Levite/Vicar came to know/yada' sin (greed, murder, lying) in the same manner that Adam came to know/yada' his wife.

Unto the woman he said ... thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (Gen. 3:16)

And to Cain GOD said: ... if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. (Gen. 4:7)

Ultimately, Cain’s relationship to sin, even as a priest found lacking - the one that may purposefully murder an Anointed One, such as Able and Yeshua, or perhaps cause others to naively promote a necessity of innocent blood, is described in a strikingly similiar manner to Adam’s relationship with Eve.

Here is an interesting article which expounds on some of these points, called Cain and Abel: A new paradigm (pdf), although it is steeped in Levitical Messianic Yuhdaism, and so, it seems as a well poisoned twice, containing fine gems such as ...

The fact that Azazel is left alive may represent GOD’s love towards us. It combined with the death of The LORD’s Goat may also be a shadow of Yeshua’s death (The LORD’s Goat) and resurrection (Azazel as living) because both goats bore iniquity .....

The scapegoat was considered cursed because of the sins that were put upon its head. This is evident by its exile into the wilderness and its title “Azazel” which was a title for a Babylonian demon which is even used in the apocalyptic book of Enoch as a title for the chief fallen angel - possibly meaning satan (8:1-9:6, 10:8).

While taking it with a grain, it was still a decent, tho short, read. However, I enjoyed this article entitled 'the evolution of the blemished priest' as well.

Hope they are found to be interesting reads for someone else too ...

One Love

Edited by Bailey, : sp.

Edited by Bailey, : gr.

Edited by Bailey, : pnct.


I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Blue Jay, posted 07-15-2009 7:45 AM Blue Jay has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 143 of 153 (774698)
12-21-2015 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Blue Jay
07-17-2009 12:22 AM


Re: On Topic Joke
Phat writes:

...this whole idea that we don't need a God because we would rather do it ourselves is part of what makes sin sin.

Bluejay writes:

What does this have to do with Cain's sacrifice?

And, how are "wanting to do it ourselves" and "sin" correlated? I don't understand what you're saying.

We would rather make our own mistakes than be forced to repent all the time and continually confess our helplessness. Being "needy" for Gods grace only makes sense once one is crushed.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Blue Jay, posted 07-17-2009 12:22 AM Blue Jay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2015 3:51 AM Phat has responded
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 12-21-2015 11:10 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4782
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 144 of 153 (774699)
12-21-2015 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
12-21-2015 3:37 AM


Re: On Topic Joke
Hi Phat - another drive-by thread resurrection I see ;-).

We would rather make our own mistakes than be forced to repent all the time and continually confess our helplessness.

Only a few fawning and self-loathing, uber-pious Christians think this way. Everybody else just gets on with their lives and makes the best of it.

Being "needy" for Gods grace only makes sense once one is crushed.

See above.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 12-21-2015 3:37 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 12-21-2015 8:58 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 145 of 153 (774700)
12-21-2015 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Tangle
12-21-2015 3:51 AM


Re: On Topic Joke
Tangle writes:

Only a few fawning and self-loathing, uber-pious Christians think this way. Everybody else just gets on with their lives and makes the best of it.

Yeah i know---that is my bad side. Funny, though--I dont usually see myself as fawning nor uber-pious. Perhaps my depression shows, however...I am occasionally self-loathing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2015 3:51 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2015 9:45 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4782
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 146 of 153 (774701)
12-21-2015 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Phat
12-21-2015 8:58 AM


Re: On Topic Joke
Phat writes:

I am occasionally self-loathing.

Ok, pretend I'm god

"Stop feeling bad, Phat - that's a commandment - I didn't put you here to be miserable"

Fixed ;-)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 12-21-2015 8:58 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4782
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 147 of 153 (774702)
12-21-2015 10:55 AM



Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13213
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 148 of 153 (774708)
12-21-2015 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
12-21-2015 3:37 AM


Re: On Topic Joke
Phat writes:

Being "needy" for Gods grace only makes sense once one is crushed.


Who's doing the crushing?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 12-21-2015 3:37 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 12-23-2015 1:02 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 149 of 153 (774828)
12-23-2015 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by ringo
12-21-2015 11:10 AM


Re: On Topic Joke
Good question! Sometimes I feel as if I am being thwarted and ultimately crushed in life, but upon further examination find that I am the instigator trying to get what I want and do things my way. Of course I pray and "surrender" to God, but in the back of my mind I believe that Gods way will also be my way since God can surely see how unfair my situation is.

It scares me to think that the answer can sometimes be No!

It also scares me to think that I have to think of others as better than myself.

It would crush me to give up.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 12-21-2015 11:10 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by ringo, posted 12-23-2015 2:26 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13213
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 150 of 153 (774834)
12-23-2015 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Phat
12-23-2015 1:02 PM


Re: On Topic Joke
Phat writes:

Sometimes I feel as if I am being thwarted and ultimately crushed in life, but upon further examination find that I am the instigator trying to get what I want and do things my way.


So you have an omnipotent God who doesn't actually do anything. How is that different form no God at all?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 12-23-2015 1:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Phat, posted 12-23-2015 3:28 PM ringo has responded

  
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