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Phat
Member
Posts: 11160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 166 of 185 (831999)
04-28-2018 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by ringo
04-28-2018 11:43 AM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
Phat writes:

Invent/describe a God Who created all seen and unseen, chooses to basically leave us alone and let us "grow up", and is not directly responsible for evil.

ringo writes:

How is that possible? Isn't evil part of "all seen and unseen"?

Perhaps we need to clarify just what evil is and is not. As an example, for all practical purposes would we consider a Tsunami "evil"? How about an earthquake? A poison spider? a drunk driver?

ringo writes:

How are we responsible for great white sharks and flesh-eating bacteria?

If it were possible for God to put us (or allow us to originate) on a perfect planet with no threats to our safety or health, could there be a reason that He chose not to do this?

Consider how we would have developed.

ringo writes:

In such an environment, why would anybody even need a rational mind? You could go around kicking things and smashing beehives with no pesky consequences to think about.
But if God created a real world with real consequences and if He created us with rational minds to deal with those circumstances, why wouldn't He expect us to use our minds?

Which is a valid argument for why God allowed us to exist here. I don't think you have really thought through how humans may behave in a world truly free from evil (and rebellion) since we ourselves would not have a need for kicking things and tipping over beehives. I theorize that we currently cannot imagine how we would behave in the absence of any and all evil, but I expect it would differ from our capabilities now.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by ringo, posted 04-28-2018 11:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by ringo, posted 04-30-2018 11:50 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 167 of 185 (832000)
04-28-2018 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by jar
04-27-2018 2:06 PM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
Phat writes:

Go ahead...give Him your best shot. Invent/describe a God Who created all seen and unseen, chooses to basically leave us alone and let us "grow up", and is not directly responsible for evil.


jar writes:

Why. Why give God a free pass?

In your tradition, of course...God allows Himself to be challenged and questioned by humans on a near constant basis.

I am assuming that God deserves a free pass due to executive privilege, much as a wise general or statesman is given at times.

If you insist on bringing Her to trial for creating evil, you will need to prove that evil was an unneeded and/or unnecessary addition to reality. And again, we need to define what specifically is and is not evil.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by jar, posted 04-27-2018 2:06 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by jar, posted 04-28-2018 4:46 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30861
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 168 of 185 (832001)
04-28-2018 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Phat
04-28-2018 4:36 PM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
Phat writes:

In your tradition, of course...God allows Himself to be challenged and questioned by humans on a near constant basis.

That's not my tradition, it is what the Bible says.

Phat writes:

I am assuming that God deserves a free pass due to executive privilege, much as a wise general or statesman is given at times.

Again, how is that relevant? You are just making stuff up again. The issue is that you market a God that is the creator of all, seen and unseen yet not responsible for what that God created. You try to use silly arguments like "God created the potential for evil" yet again, that is simply not what the Bible says.

Phat writes:

If you insist on bringing Her to trial for creating evil, you will need to prove that evil was an unneeded and/or unnecessary addition to reality. And again, we need to define what specifically is and is not evil.

And several people have mentioned the specifics over and over and over again. Creating evil; (the God in fact has so stated that He created evil). Creating beings with prior knowledge that they will be condemned. Changing the Pharaoh's mind and then punishing that Pharaoh for what the God forced the Pharaoh to do. Creating a flood that killed innocents. The list goes on and on and most are examples that the God has admitted committing already.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Phat, posted 04-28-2018 4:36 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Phat, posted 04-28-2018 5:30 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 169 of 185 (832004)
04-28-2018 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by jar
04-28-2018 4:46 PM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
At the risk of invoking the appeal to popularity, why is it that some of the major apologists fail to see what you find so obvious? They too have read the Bible, and yet market a different conclusion. Peter Kreeft is an obvious example.

You have a good argument supported by scriptures, but my question is how you have arrived at a different conclusion from many, if not most other learned Christians.

My possibility/potential evil argument is quite logical within their paradigm, though you correctly point out that its not supported by the Bible. So again my argument of why we cant speculate on which God we choose to market rather than limiting our paradigm to scriptures thousands of years old.

Besides...i dont like this "complete" God that you market. You have fused good and evil into the actions of One Being rather than a consequence of rebellion...

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by jar, posted 04-28-2018 4:46 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Tangle, posted 04-28-2018 5:56 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 171 by jar, posted 04-28-2018 6:17 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 170 of 185 (832005)
04-28-2018 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Phat
04-28-2018 5:30 PM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
Phat writes:

Besides...i dont like this "complete" God that you market. You have fused good and evil into the actions of One Being rather than a consequence of rebellion...

Remember the snake? Evil existed before 'rebellion'.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Phat, posted 04-28-2018 5:30 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30861
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 171 of 185 (832006)
04-28-2018 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Phat
04-28-2018 5:30 PM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
Phat writes:

At the risk of invoking the appeal to popularity, why is it that some of the major apologists fail to see what you find so obvious? They too have read the Bible, and yet market a different conclusion. Peter Kreeft is an obvious example.

They are Apologists. The want to support the dogma and not what is actually written. They are marketing the god they created and the dogma they created and so must find ways to deny that the Bible actually says what it says.

Phat writes:

You have a good argument supported by scriptures, but my question is how you have arrived at a different conclusion from many, if not most other learned Christians.

I am not trying to market any god or any dogma but rather simply honestly present the evidence.

Phat writes:

My possibility/potential evil argument is quite logical within their paradigm, though you correctly point out that its not supported by the Bible. So again my argument of why we cant speculate on which God we choose to market rather than limiting our paradigm to scriptures thousands of years old.

You can as long as you admit that you are simply marketing the god you create and the dogma you like.

Phat writes:

Besides...i dont like this "complete" God that you market. You have fused good and evil into the actions of One Being rather than a consequence of rebellion...

Exactly, you do not like the conclusions that are supported by the evidence and so just like Faith you make up your own fantasy.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Phat, posted 04-28-2018 5:30 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Phat, posted 04-29-2018 2:45 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 172 of 185 (832038)
04-29-2018 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by jar
04-28-2018 6:17 PM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
jar writes:

...you do not like the conclusions that are supported by the evidence ...


When it comes to imagining/defining God as can be guessed, the evidence is so far away from the reality so as to confirm that reality is not always as it seems.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by jar, posted 04-28-2018 6:17 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 04-29-2018 6:16 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30861
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 173 of 185 (832055)
04-29-2018 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Phat
04-29-2018 2:45 AM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
Phat writes:

When it comes to imagining/defining God as can be guessed, the evidence is so far away from the reality so as to confirm that reality is not always as it seems.

Now that's just silly.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Phat, posted 04-29-2018 2:45 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Phat, posted 04-29-2018 11:00 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 174 of 185 (832059)
04-29-2018 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by jar
04-29-2018 6:16 AM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
You claim that I don't like the "evidence" of what the Bible says and thus make up a fantasy.

We have had this same argument before, with a twist or two.

Phat writes:

All that the Theologians seemed they were trying to do was to attempt to understand and define God in light of scripture.

You cant honestly expect Theologians to critically examine the Bible and speak of a "god character" and base their doctrine on the idea that humans wrote, edited, and redacted the bible. It leaves them with no working definition for the God they believe exists.

Granted TULIP speaks of a God that I would prefer not to believe in...but after all, I need to have a frame of reference to conceptualize the God whom I believe actually is. And i dont really like the universalist idea of a God compiled from many varying belief systems either.

jar writes:

I am not trying to market any god or any dogma but rather simply honestly present the evidence.

But all you are doing is turning Christianity into a humanist philosophy.
You, of course, will successfully argue that Jesus pushed the same agenda.

Phat writes:

There needs to be a consensus on what God we are worshiping and which God we choose to market.


jar writes:

Nonsense.

We need to throw God away.

Thus legitimizing a humanist agenda and claiming its what Jesus really taught. You can call it Christianity if you like, but its simply just humanism.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 04-29-2018 6:16 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by jar, posted 04-29-2018 11:47 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 177 by ringo, posted 04-30-2018 11:56 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30861
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 175 of 185 (832062)
04-29-2018 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Phat
04-29-2018 11:00 AM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
Phat writes:

But all you are doing is turning Christianity into a humanist philosophy.
You, of course, will successfully argue that Jesus pushed the same agenda.

And as you said, Jesus did push the same charge and challenge. But Christianity is far more than just that. There are also the belief systems, the dogma, the ritual, the writings all the various trappings people have added over the years.

What I try to show is that Christianity don't just fit on a bumper sticker.

Phat writes:

Phat writes:

There needs to be a consensus on what God we are worshiping and which God we choose to market.


jar writes:

Nonsense.

We need to throw God away.

Thus legitimizing a humanist agenda and claiming its what Jesus really taught. You can call it Christianity if you like, but its simply just humanism.

No Phat, it is not just simple humanism although that would be a great result if it actually happened.

What I say is we need to be honest about what the evidence shows. No one has a clue about what might happen after death, of whether or not there is some afterlife. No one has a clue what GOD, if GOD exists is really like.

BUT we can have an idea about what this life is like and about how to make this life better for as many as possible; so I suggest we should concentrate on those things where me might actually be able to speak intelligently and where might actually be able to effect outcomes.

Christianity is a Path and one with some basic beliefs. But we need to recognize that belief and knowledge are not synonymous.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Phat, posted 04-29-2018 11:00 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15164
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 176 of 185 (832170)
04-30-2018 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Phat
04-28-2018 4:29 PM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
Phat writes:

Perhaps we need to clarify just what evil is and is not. As an example, for all practical purposes would we consider a Tsunami "evil"? How about an earthquake? A poison spider? a drunk driver?


Evil is basically just anything that has bad consequences. Of course bad consequences are in the eye of the beholder. The poison spider is glad that you died and not him.

Phat writes:

If it were possible for God to put us (or allow us to originate) on a perfect planet with no threats to our safety or health, could there be a reason that He chose not to do this?

Consider how we would have developed.


That's an odd notion coming from somebody who supposedly believes in Heaven. Isn't Heaven supposed to be that perfect world with no bad consequences? Don't we all want that? Why are you so concerned about "development" in this life when you want it to stop in the next?

Phat writes:

I don't think you have really thought through how humans may behave in a world truly free from evil (and rebellion) since we ourselves would not have a need for kicking things and tipping over beehives.


The fundamentalist belief seems to be that we would run wild, raping and killing each other. They say so explicitly.

I would suggest that empathy has nothing to do with belief in God.


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Phat, posted 04-28-2018 4:29 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15164
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 177 of 185 (832171)
04-30-2018 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Phat
04-29-2018 11:00 AM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
Phat writes:

But all you are doing is turning Christianity into a humanist philosophy.


The good religions start as humanist philosophy.

The bad ones make excuses for why God's needs are more important than ours.


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Phat, posted 04-29-2018 11:00 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Phat, posted 04-30-2018 12:08 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 178 of 185 (832174)
04-30-2018 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by ringo
04-30-2018 11:56 AM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
I suppose you would argue that our needs are the primary concern. My only argument concerning Christianity as a humanist philosophy is that God is not even needed as part of it all. In my opinion, "good" religions involve God...not simply humans doing for other humans.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by ringo, posted 04-30-2018 11:56 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 04-30-2018 12:13 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15164
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 179 of 185 (832176)
04-30-2018 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Phat
04-30-2018 12:08 PM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?
Phat writes:

I suppose you would argue that our needs are the primary concern.


Here we go again. What does God need? And why do we need a needy God?

Phat writes:

My only argument concerning Christianity as a humanist philosophy is that God is not even needed as part of it all.


quote:
"A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle,"
-- Irina Dunn

Do we really need a god? Or do we just wish there was a god to fulfil our needs?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Phat, posted 04-30-2018 12:08 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 04-30-2018 12:24 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 180 of 185 (832177)
04-30-2018 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by ringo
04-30-2018 12:13 PM


Re: Is It On God or On Us?

I believe that we need God. Who the heck is gonna bail me out when I fail???


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 04-30-2018 12:13 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by ringo, posted 04-30-2018 12:43 PM Phat has responded
 Message 182 by Tangle, posted 04-30-2018 1:51 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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