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Author Topic:   Sin
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 107 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 121 of 153 (516133)
07-23-2009 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Stile
07-23-2009 8:26 AM


Re: Objective shmobjective
Hi, Stile.

Stile writes:

Bluejay writes:

...for those who weren't given a legitimate chance to accept God in this life, an opportunity to have the ordinances done in the next life will be provided.

...Now a pass/fail of my test all depends on how strictly one defines "legitimate."

This would almost have to be a subjective determination, in my opinion. It would require the ability to know what would constitute enough evidence to convince you of the validity of Mormonism.

So, if you were one of those sensitive/spiritual types, the merest thing (like the miracle of a sunny day) might constitute sufficient evidence of God.

But, if you were one of those skeptical, scientific types I've been warned about at Church, more substantial evidence might be required before a chance was considered "legitimate."

But, for the most part, we leave it up to God to make that determination, and just assume that it will somehow be worked out in the next life.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Stile, posted 07-23-2009 8:26 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Stile, posted 07-24-2009 7:48 AM Blue Jay has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5577
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 122 of 153 (516168)
07-23-2009 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phage0070
07-23-2009 6:59 AM


Re: Sin
Hi Phage0070,

Phage0070 writes:

So then would you ignore "sins" that do not have real consequences? For instance: Suppose I act as equally moral as another Christian (perhaps even more so than some) and yet daily I think "Damn you God, damn you to hell!" and mean it.
What "real consequences" does this have? Who is harmed by it, or what negative physical repercussions can we expect to measure?

So are you saying that is a sin?

If so what do you base your conclusion on?

Since you don't believe in God what is the problem?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phage0070, posted 07-23-2009 6:59 AM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Phage0070, posted 07-23-2009 6:47 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5577
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 123 of 153 (516171)
07-23-2009 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Blue Jay
07-23-2009 7:37 AM


Re: Calling for Christians to Respond
Hi jay,

Bluejay writes:

Mormons believe that all but the most horrific people will get to go to heaven. But, "good behavior" grants you perks and blessings beyond the mere baseline gift of going to heaven.

Why won't the most horrfic people get to go to heaven?

What did the ones that get to go do that the HP people did not do?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Blue Jay, posted 07-23-2009 7:37 AM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Blue Jay, posted 07-24-2009 7:42 AM ICANT has responded

    
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 153 (516172)
07-23-2009 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ICANT
07-23-2009 6:29 PM


Re: Sin
"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.
óMark 3:29, NIV"

I appears that you consider the Bible to be important and your god to be real, so it would follow that you consider this to be a sin. As I don't believe in God, I don't believe that "sin" exists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2009 6:29 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2009 7:20 PM Phage0070 has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5577
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 125 of 153 (516174)
07-23-2009 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Phage0070
07-23-2009 6:47 PM


Re: Sin
Hi Phage0070,

Phage0070 writes:

"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.
óMark 3:29, NIV"
I appears that you consider the Bible to be important and your god to be real, so it would follow that you consider this to be a sin. As I don't believe in God, I don't believe that "sin" exists.

Lets see you don't believe in God, or that sin exists.

Does your belief make it a fact that they don't exist?

I'll let you in on a little secret you are not a Bible scholar either.

Cursing God is not the event refered to in Mark 3:29, and carries no more penalty than a little white lie would.

But if there is a God you don't want to die charged with the one in Mark 3:29. BTW that is when you commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Although it is possible to do earlier in your lifetime.

You do know I believe in a God so I will warn you about that one, but you go ahead and do whatever your little mind decides to do.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Phage0070, posted 07-23-2009 6:47 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Rahvin, posted 07-23-2009 7:53 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 127 by Phage0070, posted 07-23-2009 8:24 PM ICANT has responded

    
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 597 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 126 of 153 (516176)
07-23-2009 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by ICANT
07-23-2009 7:20 PM


Re: Sin
Lets see you don't believe in God, or that sin exists.

Does your belief make it a fact that they don't exist?

Does your belief in them make them exist?

Certainly not.

I'll let you in on a little secret you are not a Bible scholar either.

Cursing God is not the event refered to in Mark 3:29, and carries no more penalty than a little white lie would.

But if there is a God you don't want to die charged with the one in Mark 3:29. BTW that is when you commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Although it is possible to do earlier in your lifetime.

That seems pretty clear to me, too - it's blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, not jsut God, that carries an unforgivable sin. But then, that opens up the debate regarding the trinity again, doesn't it? If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all one God, why is a curse against one different from a curse against the others?

You do know I believe in a God so I will warn you about that one, but you go ahead and do whatever your little mind decides to do.

God Bless,

See, this just reeks of Pascal's Wager. "Don't insult my deity, because if you're wrong you'll go to Hell!"

Clearly it's not quite the same (unless there's another deity out there who requires blasphemy against other deities).

In any case, why bother hurling insults at fictitious entities? I've never cursed Santa Claus, or blasphemed against Athena.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2009 7:20 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 153 (516182)
07-23-2009 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by ICANT
07-23-2009 7:20 PM


Re: Sin
ICANT writes:

Does your belief make it a fact that they don't exist?


Of course not, I don't believe they don't exist because there is a complete lack of evidence, and a high likelihood of their non-existence. I, as opposed to others, have no confusion over the order in that regard.

ICANT writes:

BTW that is when you commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.


Ok, fine. Modify the statement to "Damn the Holy Spirit, damn it to Hell!" What real-world impact does that have if it is a sin? Don't try to wriggle out of this question.

ICANT writes:

You do know I believe in a God so I will warn you about that one, but you go ahead and do whatever your little mind decides to do.


Then you also know I don't care what your crazy little sect believes is or isn't God, or what will happen if I think ill of it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2009 7:20 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2009 10:47 PM Phage0070 has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5577
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 128 of 153 (516190)
07-23-2009 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Phage0070
07-23-2009 8:24 PM


Re: Sin
Hi Phage0070,

Phage0070 writes:

Ok, fine. Modify the statement to "Damn the Holy Spirit, damn it to Hell!" What real-world impact does that have if it is a sin? Don't try to wriggle out of this question.

Sorry to disapoint you but you didn't get it right yet.There is only one unpardonable sin and you keep on living your life like you have so far.

Keep telling yourself there is no God, no sin, no heaven and no lake of fire.

And by the time your physical body expires you will have gotten it right.

I believe in God so I don't mind talking about Him. But I have been told more that one time I was wasting time.

Why do atheist like yourself spend so much of your life argueing about something you do not believe exists. Just bogles my mind.

Phage0700 writes:

Then you also know I don't care what your crazy little sect believes is or isn't God, or what will happen if I think ill of it.

I will remind you of this statement at some point in your future.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Phage0070, posted 07-23-2009 8:24 PM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Phage0070, posted 07-24-2009 7:09 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 132 by Blue Jay, posted 07-24-2009 7:52 AM ICANT has responded

    
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 153 (516226)
07-24-2009 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by ICANT
07-23-2009 10:47 PM


Re: Sin
ICANT writes:

Why do atheist like yourself spend so much of your life argueing about something you do not believe exists.


It is a combination of a desire to help others, and a desire to correct wrongs in the world. So much waste and hardship is present in the world caused by religion, by belief in imaginary things, it is amazing. I argue because I truly believe you and your kind are holding back the development of humanity through willful ignorance.

ICANT writes:

There is only one unpardonable sin


Then point it out why don't you? I'm not going to play "20 Questions" to find out what every crackpot decides to imagine today.

ICANT writes:

I will remind you of this statement at some point in your future.


Well that is rather vague.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2009 10:47 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2009 6:20 PM Phage0070 has responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 107 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 130 of 153 (516229)
07-24-2009 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by ICANT
07-23-2009 6:40 PM


Re: Calling for Christians to Respond
Hi, ICANT.

ICANT writes:

Why won't the most horrfic people get to go to heaven?

What did the ones that get to go do that the HP people did not do?

Does "HP people" mean "horrific people people"?

If you think everyone should o to heaven, why don't you teach that from the pulpit?


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2009 6:40 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2009 6:05 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2870
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 131 of 153 (516231)
07-24-2009 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Blue Jay
07-23-2009 2:14 PM


Re: Objective shmobjective
Bluejay writes:

Hi, Stile.

Bonjour, Bleujay.

Bluejay writes:

Stile writes:

a pass/fail of my test all depends on how strictly one defines "legitimate."

for the most part, we leave it up to God to make that determination, and just assume that it will somehow be worked out in the next life.

Not sure if anyone cares, but, personally, I do consider this answer a "pass" to my test. Although it's one of my least-favourite answers since it doesn't really answer the question. But, sometimes questions just aren't answerable


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Blue Jay, posted 07-23-2009 2:14 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded

    
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 107 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 132 of 153 (516232)
07-24-2009 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by ICANT
07-23-2009 10:47 PM


Re: Sin
Hi, ICANT.

ICANT writes:

Why do atheist like yourself spend so much of your life argueing about something you do not believe exists. Just bogles my mind.

I'm not an atheist, as you know.

But, this shouldn't boggle your mind:

  • You have spent a very large amount of time on this forum arguing against Big Bang cosmology, which you do not believe in.
  • Creationists spend their entire professional careers arguing against evolution, which they don't believe happens.
  • Christian preachers spend their entire professional careers arguing against false doctrines.
  • The prophets from the scriptures spent their lives arguing against Dagon, Marduk, Baal and a lot of other gods that they did not believe existed.

Disbelief in something is a very common and legitimate reason to argue about it.

What else do you expect somebody to do but argue for what they perceive as truth?
And, how can they do that without arguing against what they perceive as falsehood?

Edited by Bluejay, : Capitalization


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2009 10:47 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2009 5:55 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5577
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 133 of 153 (516366)
07-24-2009 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Blue Jay
07-24-2009 7:52 AM


Re: Sin
Hi jay,

Bluejay writes:

I'm not an atheist, as you know.

The message you are replying to was not addressed to you. But I get your reasoning for wanting to answer it.

Bluejay writes:

You have spent a very large amount of time on this forum arguing against Big Bang cosmology, which you do not believe in.

God is not taught in our schools and colleges as a fact. BBT is.

But what makes you think I don't believe in Big Bang Cosmology?

Maybe because I say I believe the universe has always existed in some form.

That does not mean in the shape we see it today.

Can you imagine what would take place if you had a big ball of energy and decided to create a universe out of it. All the things that would have to move and take place if spoken into existence in a nano second. All that energy would have to become other things, talk about inflation.

I just don't believe the story that is being taught and I think I have proved that point. I have asked many questions that have been unanswered and will remain unanswered.

Bluejay writes:

Creationists spend their entire professional careers arguing against evolution, which they don't believe happens.

Most of them don't believe God did it either. If they did they would be serving Him rather than serving self.

Bluejay writes:

Christian preachers spend their entire professional careers arguing against false doctrines.

Ah but false doctrine exists.

But only a few is still putting up a fight.

Bluejay writes:

The prophets from the scriptures spent their lives arguing against Dagon, Marduk, Baal and a lot of other gods that they did not believe existed.

Elijah probally wasted more time than any one else did. He spent a whole day making fun of a bunch of Baal's prophets and then the Children of Israel killed them when Baal would not accept their offering. But God accepted Elijah's.

Bluejay writes:

Disbelief in something is a very common and legitimate reason to argue about it.

What else do you expect somebody to do but argue for what they perceive as truth?
And, how can they do that without arguing against what they perceive as falsehood?

Well said and I understand that.

But looking at my statement to Phage0700 I still can't understand why someone who does not believe God exists would waste time arguing that He don't exist.

If He doesn't exist at 70 years old I have a very short time left on earth. If that is all the time I have to exist then I would not waste one minute of it on anything. I would enjoy what time I have left.

You see I believe God exists and I am going to spend eternity with Him so I got plenty of time left.

So yes it boggles my mind.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Blue Jay, posted 07-24-2009 7:52 AM Blue Jay has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5577
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 134 of 153 (516370)
07-24-2009 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Blue Jay
07-24-2009 7:42 AM


Re: Calling for Christians to Respond
Hi jay,

Didn't see this one.

Bluejay writes:

If you think everyone should o to heaven, why don't you teach that from the pulpit?

I teach that everyone should go to heaven.
I teach that everyone could go to heaven.
Does that mean everyone is going to heaven. Sorry to say the answer is no.

God in the form of a man called Jesus died on the cross so everyone could go to heaven.

All anyone has to do is accept God's offer of a free full pardon.

I teach man gets to heaven because of God's unmerited favor. All mankind has to do is believe He will do what He says He will do.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Blue Jay, posted 07-24-2009 7:42 AM Blue Jay has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5577
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 135 of 153 (516374)
07-24-2009 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Phage0070
07-24-2009 7:09 AM


Re: Sin
Hi Phage0700,

Phage0700 writes:

It is a combination of a desire to help others, and a desire to correct wrongs in the world. So much waste and hardship is present in the world caused by religion, it is amazing.

I agree.

Phage0700 writes:

by belief in imaginary things,

I agree, like Santa Clause. Do you know many people are still paying for the junk that has already made it to the dump.

Phage0700 writes:

I argue because I truly believe you and your kind are holding back the development of humanity through willful ignorance.

Since you know very little about me you are making a broad statement.

You only have an imaginary knowledge of what I believe and teach, and do. It is all in your imagination. If you care to know please send me an e-mail and we will talk about it but not here.

Phage0700 writes:

Then point it out why don't you? I'm not going to play "20 Questions" to find out what every crackpot decides to imagine today.

I have to you. It is found in John 3:18.

3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Phage0700 writes:

Well that is rather vague.

I meant it to be.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Phage0070, posted 07-24-2009 7:09 AM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Phage0070, posted 07-24-2009 6:53 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
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