Spirituality

Hello, Everyone.I’m afraid this discussion hasn’t helped me iron out my cognitive dissonance much at all.For the moment, let’s ignore the atheistic views on spirituality (but, by all means, feel free to continue your subtopics), just so I can get a grasp of the religious side of things.As seems to be terminably the case in religious thought, there has been a lot of elusive talk that defines spirituality in the absence of a frame of reference, so I’d like to try and nail spirituality down by analyzing it in terms of dichotomies.I can think of two dichotomies with which spirituality is often associated:

• Spirituality vs Physicality
• Spirituality vs Immorality

Do most Christians agree that these two dichotomies exist and are distinct from one another?Even if they are not both part of the actual belief system, I think it is safe to say that both dichotomies rear their ugly heads in discourse. This has caused many headaches for science-minded people, and has led to much equivocation on the part of religious people in debates, such as take place at EvC.So, is spiritual the opposite of physical or the opposite of immoral? If anyone says, "both," I will regard him or her as no longer worth talking to on this thead.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

it would have to be the opposite of both because the bible links fleshly things with immoral things.Romans 8:12 "6For the minding of the flesh means death, but the minding of the spirit means life and peace; 7because the minding of the flesh means enmity with God, for it is not under subjection to the law of God, nor, in fact, can it be. 8So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God."The following scripture from Galations sums it up pretty well spirituality is the opposite of sensuality, worldliness and selfish desire.Galations 5:16

quote:

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"But I say, Keep walking by spirit and YOU will carry out no fleshly desire at all. 17For the flesh is against the spirit in its desire, and the spirit against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, so that the very things that YOU would like to do YOU do not do. 18Furthermore, if YOU are being led by spirit, YOU are not under law.

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19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.
22On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.

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I am a Christian. And your two dichotomies are over simplistic in light of everything said in the Bible about the matter.Oversimplification does not necessarily mean wrong. It means inadaquate. Let's start with the word "dichotomies". The reason why these dichotomies are over simplistic and inadaquate is because man, in Scripture, is a trichotomy."And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:23)Here are three parts not just two: "your spirit and soul and body". We could say that there is a dichotomy in that two parts are immaterial and one part is material.spirit and soul - immaterial
body - materialBut man himself "complete" is "spirit AND soul AND body" (my emphasus)The tripartite man can be studied more here: Tripartite Man: refs. include Watchman Nee and Witness LeeThe problem is further complicated by the fact that the bible uses the term "the flesh" or "flesh" in different shades of meaning. They are not always negative. It is sometimes meant negatively, ie. meaning the whole fallen and sinful man.At other times flesh or fleshly is not meant in any particularly negative sense. A man shall leave his father and mother, be joined to his wife. And the two shall become one flesh. (See Genesis 2:24; Eph. 5:31; Matt. 19:5). I don't think anything pernicious is meant there.My point is that the little dichotomy you wrote is inadaquate because it over simplifies the matter. I will at this time avoid the temptation of a quick answer. Let me return to the subject with some careful thought and a genuine intention to help you.But I will say at the ourset that the Bible eludes total theological systemization. If you want total and absolute systematic theology of the Bible I am sure that that will not work.

Yes, you seem to say a lot of things that aren't true. You have given me no reason to actually think that I do not know myself well. You just keep saying it over and over. Saying something does not make it true. As far as I can tell, I know myself as well as anyone you've described knows themselves. There is no difference at all. Well, let me be the first. Hello, jaywill. I am an atheist and I do not think I am "clever" in the sense you are talking about here. I only explained my reasoning to you. You called it "an array of irrelevant reasonings" without giving any basis at all to call it such.Perhaps you can show the error of my ways, instead of just saying "you're in error" and leaving it at that?Can you actually show how humans are capable of "knowing" something without having it shown to them?Perhaps you have a strange defintion of the word *know*.Faith and belief are ways of accepting the truth when we are not fully aware of the actual possibilties of the truth. This is why we have faith in such things as the afterlife, or God's existence.To know something is a way of understanding the actual truth through verification. This is why we have knowledge of such things as the distance between cities.The very defintion of the word "know" is to "directly perceive" or "have direct cognition of." Such things (for a human) are not possible unless we are shown whatever it is we're trying to understand. Taking someone's word for something, even if that someone is God Himself, is not "directly perceiving" something. It's just the defintion of the word "know."I can understand how you think that God's authority is beyond question. It's just that, as a human, I cannot honestly *know* something unless I have directly perceived it.Therefore, if God Himself asks me how I know something, I would be lying if I told him "because I accept your word." Such a thing is faith, or belief, or trust; it is not "knowing" since it is not "directly perceiving." It's not being rude or clever, it's simply acknoweldging the defintion of the word.I wouldn't want to "be clever" in front of a God as much as I wouldn't want to be dishonest.So, what specifically, about the above is "irrelevant" or "clever?"
As far as I can tell, I'm simply being honest and answering God's question to the best of my abilities as a human. You seem to be very sure that I haven't done this already, or constantly. Strange. I wouldn't say God rejects my honest prayers. I'd say He doesn't acknowledge them. Perhaps it's because He doesn't exist. Perhaps it's for some other reason. Nothing to lose at all. Again, what makes you think I don't already do so? It just so happens that God doesn't seem to answer honest requests. Perhaps I'm "doing it wrong," but I only do what other's (such as yourself) have suggested. Oh, don't worry. Actually, if anyting, I gained more respect for jaywill from our exchange. I don't think I've ever seriously read your posts before. But you still have yet to make Jesus an issue to me. You have yet to do as I've asked (but it's okay, I'm pretty sure it's impossible, so it's not like I blame you or anything):Can you show anything beneficial at all that a "God (or Bible) believer" can obtain that an atheist cannot?You have yet to do so.
Therefore, I am forced to remain with my original thoughts about your position: the words you espouse are no different from imagination, they don't make any actual difference to reality.You claim that Jesus, God and the Bible are the only path to spirituality and a "glorious" life.But, from all you've claimed about spirituality or a glorious life, there is nothing that I don't already have in my atheist life. Apart from the talk of God, the Bible and Jesus... who may as well be entirely fictional creations of the imagination since they have zero impact on any portion of reality (from what you describe to what I see around my own life).

Hi Jaywill, To say this to someone requires you to have realized that for yourself as well, does it not?So why hold the opinion that your beliefs are right, without considering that they may equally be completely wrong, since they are just your subjective beliefs? But how can this be truth when it is part of a faith based belief?It's contradictory, to say the least. How can you assure us of that when it is a faith based belief?You have convinced yourself and now are trying to persuade others using what convinced you, don't you see how irrelevant your opinons of the Bible are, and how condescending it makes you look?You're basically telling Stile that he has no idea how to run his life properly and that you know better than him whats right for him. Why? Because you accepted the stories in one particular book? Because you claim some connection with an unknown entity? And he's telling you that your wrong, now what?What makes you so confident? You convinced yourself that it's true. Guess what? So has every other person in a religion dating back to the first religions, what makes you different? Fine, lets say you're right. But what makes the "Christian" god the right one? Why not any other god? What would be the difference? Do you pray to other gods as well? What do you have to lose in doing so? Let me ask you this, what if the person has tried all their lives to talk to god and vice versa, but never experience a thing, nothing at all. Not a voice, not an inner feeling, not anything spiritual, not anything metaphysical or supernatural...nothing, just dead silence. What then? - What do you do when you spend your life trying to experience god but nothing happens?- Oni

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If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little.
~George Carlin

I would say spiritual is the opposite of real.

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

The "you" in there is general. I mean all people.Let me put it this way, the example of Peter is illustrative. He was so sure that in his own strength he could follow Christ to death if he had to. Jesus told him that before the cock crew he would deny him three times. When it came down to it Peter denied even knowing Jesus and that with cursing and before a little servant girl.He found out that Jesus knew him much better than he knew himself. What he wanted to do and what he was able to do were two different things.My belief is that apart from Christ we all mistake ourselves for the person we want to be. What we want to be and what we actually are are not the same.I think Peter is a kind of representative of all of us. The particulars about believing we can follow Jesus are not the issue as much as the general desire to do the right thing. Often we are full of self confidence about what we can do. But this is a reflection of what we would like to be and not what we really are. I already briefly gave you some possible wrong ways of thinking in that "clever" example. I don't think I said that people could know without being shown. But in the matter of being shown I think persuasion is different from proof.Some people are shown that they are sinners but they are not persuaded of the seriousness of it. They may be comparing themselves to other people and thinking "Well, at least I am not as bad as that other guy over there." But the Bible is not comparing me to that guy over there but according to God's standard of righteousness.When I did not know Christ I was like a house in the night with all the lights turned low or even off. My house was dark. As a result I could look out the window and see very clearly (so I thought) what was going on in the other houses. But when the lights in my own house were turn up very brightly, I was more able to see what was going on in my own house. I was less impressed with what was going on in the other houses.This is an illustration. And I think it applies to most, if not all of us before and after we meet Jesus Christ. We just trust ourselves in a dark way. It is not that we do not know anything about ourselves. But next to the light of Christ we don't realize how much we need to mercy of God to live righteously. "Afterlife" is not a word in my vocabulary. I cannot find such a word in the Bible. I think it is a kind of natural religious thought, perhaps even invented by outside observers of Christians. But if not, it is still not a good term to me.I see a lot about Christ as life, Christ being life, giving life, resurrection and life, and enjoying the Spirit of life here and now and through eternity. I don't see "AFTER - life" as a biblical idea.But to the matter of faith. The Person to me in human history who most strongly demonstrated a life of faith was Jesus Himself. Of all human lives His is by far the most powerful and the most impactful I have ever seen. Yet He lived totally in faith.So the Bible has a long list of impressive people how lived by faith. And the top one is Jesus Christ the Son of God. Faith plus the Faithfulness of God to me is a stronger way of life than anything else.Far from being pitiable and unsure I see faith plus the faithfulness of God as extremly stable. That is the way I want to live.Faith also leaves man with nothing to brag about. The glory goes to God and His faithfulness. According to Genesis it was the thrust for independence from God which plunged the human race and its world into sin and death, decay and misery. It all started with the thought that we could have some knowledge which would make us independent from this supposed tyrant God who was arbitrarily limiting our lofty potential.It was a lie. And in the long list of heroes of faith, those who relied upon God, Jesus Christ the Son of God is the crowning Man of Faith. His faith caused Him to overcome death itself."This One [Christ], in the days of His flesh, having offered up both petitions and supplications with strong crying and tears to Him who was able to save Him out of death and having been heard because of His piety ..." (Hebrews 5:7)Here it says that Jesus Christ offered up strong prayers to the Father who was able to save Him OUT OF death. That is not to be saved from dying. That is to be saved out of death once having died. Christ's faith brought about His resurrection from the dead.He demonstated above all others the power of man's faith PLUS the faithfulnesss of God. And I wrote above that our sins have made a separation between us and God. Our sins is the barrier. When the problem of the forgiveness of our sins is addressed through coming to Jesus in faith for redemption and justification from our sins, we can contact God and substantiate fellowship with God.The obstacle is nothing more interesting then our sins. It is not that we need to know more about quantum physics. It is not that we need to know more about ancient Greek culture or ancient Roman law. It is not that we need to know more about the Big Bang. It is none of these very interesting things.The separation between us and the spiritual life is the real guilt before a real God because of our real sins. We need to really repent and receive forgiveness through the death of Christ on our behalf. And it is personal - "He lived me and gave Himself up for me" writes Paul.Now you protest that you know yourself. Sure, you know yourself some. But do you yet know that you are a hopeless sinful man who is good only to be condemned by God law ? I am worst than you.The more I grow in Christ the more I realize in myself that there is no hope in my own goodness. It takes someone really pure to live right. I'd rather go with Jesus in the dark than try it myself alone in the light. You might start by considering the creation. Would you like to have the responsibility to keep every cell in your body functioning properly? The intelligence to create such a marvelous life is astounding. If you convert that creative power to moral power you have a very powerful moral agent.Who would you say in human history exemplifies the greatest degree of moral authority? I would say that there have been many very moral people, good people. But I would have to say none compares to Jesus of Nazareth. Three and one half years of living have made such a cataclysmic impact on history. They divided human history (at least in the west) to Before Christ B.C. and In the Year of Our Lord - A.D. (I know now it is common to not offend by speaking of BCE and CE). The point is the same though.Anyway, I can't easily ignore such a Person, His life and His words. He bothers me and I have to deal with Jesus.That is why some people come to a Faith and Belief Forum, to deal with this troublesome Jesus Person. I am not saying that you are a believer in God. And this is getting a little confused to me.I guess what I would like you to remember the most is that our sins make a separation between us and God. God has made provision to remove that separation.Now once an agonostic friend of mine protested to me saying "That's what I don't like about the Gospel. You have to have faith to believe and you have to believe to have faith." I went home and thought on it and decided that he was right.But then I noticed that the New Testament says that faith works by love. So you learn to trust someone you love. And if you read the Gospel of Jesus there is a good chance that you will begin to love this Person Jesus just a little. And enough faith can come to get more.Look, You trust your father and mother. They said that they were your parants. I bet you never went to have a DNA analysis done to prove that to be true. I bet you trusted them.Maybe they lied. Maybe the doctor lied on your birth certificate. Maybe that is not your mother. Maybe that is not your father. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe ....I bet you never really PROVED that the persons you call Mom and Dad were without any possible doubt or chance of deception, your parents. But you probably loved them and trusted that they were telling you the truth.Do you really KNOW that that is your father? Do you really KNOW that that is your mother.?It is similar with getting to know Christ and God. Faith works through love. I do not know that. I don't even know that you don't know God. I only am going by your words. Do you really think that God does not exist ?I think whoever concocted the character of Jesus Christ, if Jesus was a fictional invention of that person's imagination, we better find that person and see whatother marvelous things he or she can dream up.I think Jesus has His hands on too much truth not to be consulted on the matter of the existence of God. Let me turn it around to you then. I do what you atheists tell me and I still know that God has touched me.Seems to work both ways.

In the meantime, I am concerned with how the beliefs effect my day to day life. Time will just have to vindicate the truth.I take little pride in just have the correct information, the right data. What is important to me is how Christ is lived out in my life.I am commanded to go into all the world and preach the Gospel. So I do. I simply have to leave the final vindication of the truth up to God and His timing. See if you can consult some of the people in your life. I am pretty sure that a couple of them will inform you that, "Yes onfire, I think you sinned. At least on this occasion you sinned against me."Is there no one in your life that you have done dirt to? I mean an evil deed/s. Nobody? Go ask her. Ask them.You think there is no rememberance of your life? You think there is no record? You think you will peacefully melt away into the dust of the earth in annhilation. Maybe you are noble and think the only justice is that you know yourself that you could have done better.That's not bad. The only thing is that we tend to be strict with others and merciful on ourselves. This is not equal. This is IN- equality - iniquity. Where is the totally equal sense of justice?I believe that it is with God. He is no respector of persons. But if as a atheist you are gambling on only peacefully disolving away into dust with no accounting for what was done or what was done TO you, for that matter, I think it would be wise to listen to Jesus.Of all people Jesus is the one said to have gone into death and come out again. On the subject matter of ultimate destinies and final accountability, I have to listen to Jesus Christ.You don't feel to? Okay. You make your own decision. I cannot. I think God can. He can get on the inside of a man. I can't.There are somethings which the Bible says that we KNOW. These things the Apostle John wrote us reminding us that we who have received Jesus Christ into our hearts know. Paul also talks about the pledge of the Spirit within as a kind of "downpayment" and earnest and a foretaste of a fully enjoyment to come.John calls it "an anointing" that teaches us to abide in union with Christ the living Spirit - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)So my experience is not that I simply muster up human will power like Dorthy or the Cowardly Lion in the Wizard of Oz - "I Do believe, I Do, I Do, I Do". It is not a matter of my mustered up will power.Rather we have a pledge of the indwelling Holy Spirit. And I know that Jesus lives more than I know my own name. The intuitive sense of the livingness of Christ and of God and that I am in fellowship with this God, is deeper than anything else going on in my being. The Apostle John is not saying that they know everything in the world. He is saying that concerning Christ as alive and indwelling them the Holy Spirit is painting them as a kind of anointing, rubbing this ointment of God into them, and they know it. God is dispensing and imparting His life and nature into the believer in Christ. The believer is experiencing a transformation that he knows is not of him. He himself cannot be the source for it is freeing him from the slavery of sinning.This anointing, the rubbing of God's life into the man is the source of his knowing "all things" pertaining to the living Son of God. I don't get introspective. As the Holy Spirit convicts me of my faults I put them under the blood of Jesus. We overcome the accusations by the blood of Christ.He does a much better job of exposing my weaknesses and faults then you could ever do. Only Jesus can do a truly "inside job".Besides, me being condescending doesn't make God not exist for you. let's say I am really,really humble. Let's say I am really,really proud. I think you should still deal with the words of Jesus.He says that He loves the sinner and died on the cross and rose. If you come to Him God looks upon you as if you had never sinned. If you were to remind Him of your sins after coming to Jesus God might say "I don't know what you are talking about. Whatever sins you have done have all been judged with Justice on the cross of Calvary. You are free." I'd like you to think about that onfire. With God it is possible that your entire life history is changed from a legacy of sins and transgressions to a Person Jesus Christ. Christ Himself can become your sinless past.I didn't invent this scheme. I don't think some smart people concocted such a scheme. We learned about it out of the mouth of Jesus Christ.Now hold on. I may not be able to convince you that God exists. But I want you to understand what Jesus says. He is righteous. You are not. He is righteousness itself. You are guilty. If you believe into Christ immediatly God looks upon for eternity as if you had never sinned. It has already been judged. Justice on your behalf has been imputed in the death of Jesus that you may be forgiven.Then He wants to enter into your innermost being as life giving Spirit to empower you to live in an "organic union" with Christ - with God and in God for eternal life.Don't say that this is condescending. Or it could be the case that I am the best friend he has at the moment because I am telling him the truth about the love of Jesus for his soul.Maybe it is the case that you want to assure yourself that Christ can be ignored by encouraging Stile to do the same. Maybe if he does not come to Christ for salvation because you urged him on to disbelieve, his blood will be on your hands before God. I think the anointing within that I spoke of teaches me to abide in Christ.Ask your Moslem friends if they know God. Ask them. When I ask them I usually do not get the answer with confidence. There is a difference between knowing a lot ABOUT God and knowing God.Usually they will say that no one can know God. But they know a lot about God. They know that God is the Creator. They know that God gives them blessings. They know that God is great and that God is good. They know a lot of things the Quran or the Bible for that matter told them about God. But rarely do they admit THAT THEY KNOW GOD.Ask them.Being born of God, regeneration, is that we may know Christ, that we may know God as our dear and intimate Abba Father.When I knew God inwardly the whole world seemed a different place to me. I went down to the pond at twilight. I heard the insects chirping and the frogs croaking. I felt His presence. I said to myself:"Now I understand. These things my Father made. This is my Father's world." That is a hypethetical situation that I do not know of. Maybe that is just something made up in your head.But if not, I would not deny that there are cases which are over my head. And I know I have limitations. It doesn't mean that these tough cases are over the head of Jesus.We have the case of Job in the Bible. He believed in God and EVERYTHING in his life became a living hell. One entire book is devoted to "Why to Bad Things Happen to Good People". And the book of Job never give the answer to Job as to why all that terrible stuff happened to him.You might call this book "Equal Time to the Disillusioned".
Then you have the book of Ecclesiastes which could be called "Equal Time to the Cynical"My bible doesn't shy away from hard cases. And I have known quite a few people with very hard cases. While I may not be able to advize in all cases I know that somewhere God has taken someone through a hard case like that.As a young gospel preacher I was trained with the advice "Do not try to preach the gospel to an older man. He will not consider that you even know human life as well as he."So I do meet some people whom I only feel to pray for. It is not always easy. People do go through some very rough crap.However, I am still pretty certain that Jesus Saves.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I've tried to sift through your post to find on-topic things about spirituality. And about the "difference" I've been asking you to show between "true" (from-God) spirituality and atheistical spirituality. I actually agree with the sentiment of both these things you talk about here. The only thing I would do is delete "Christ" and replace it with "knowledge."Jesus Christ is not necessary in order to learn how to be spiritual and grow in moral character. The only thing that is necessary for such a thing is the knowledge to do do so. Some can uncover that knowledge on their own through reflection of their own experiences. Some can get that knowledge from talks with their parents and friends.So... if both get to the exact same destination (spirituality) and one uses Jesus Christ, and another uses knowledge from others and their own experiences... what's the difference?This is what I'm saying. There is no difference. Or, at least, you have yet to describe one. Jesus Christ is one way to being spiritual, he most certainly is not the only way and definitely not the best way for everyone. But this is simply untrue.I don't even believe in "a real God"... and I have no seperation between myself and the spiritual life. Or, at least, you have yet to describe one.So, again, what's the difference between "true" (God-given) spirituality and atheistical spirituality. So far, they're exactly the same other than your claim that true spirituality comes from God. But, even then, the "true" spirituality from God Himself is exactly the same as the atheistical spirituality available to all humans.There is no difference.

Hi, Peg. In light of this, does this mean that you believe everything physical is bad and everything spiritual is good?

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Right, but you could still be wrong about this. The point is that what one feels is right has no bearing on what other people might feel is right for them. The outcome, (being spiritual), is the only acheivable goal that is common. The means by which one chooses to get there is completely up to the individual. Neither way is the right way for everyone. Each individual finds their own journey to spirituality in their life experiences.Yours happens to be through your belief in God and Christ, other people choose their own path. I've done plenty of people wrong, but I don't consider myself a "sinner" in the biblical sense, nor do I accept that the term "sinner" or "sin" defines our actions.The word is derived from religion and as such carries with it a theological definition that does have any meaning to atheists. That's not to say that atheists don't consider their actions wrong, like I said I have done plenty of people wrong and have felt bad for it (and regreted it), but there's no reason to attach a biblical definition to my actions. It's well enough just knowing that you did wrong, regret your actions and harm you may have caused and learned from the experiences. Yes, and an example of that is what you are doing with, Stile. You are being strict with him and his ideology, yet feel that your belief has granted you mercy.The point is that we usually judge others by our own standards. We are all guilty of this, you as well as shown by your posts. But if we stop to consider that the individual you are talking to feels that they have spirituality in their lives, in the same way as you feel you have it in your life, then there is no reason to harp on the means by which we got there, it's well enough that we are both there. I grant you the same right. (Catholic Scientist, insert gay joke here) How can the Bible say anything? Those are words written by men and interpreted by you. But Bible stuff is too off-topic so I won't comment on the scripture quotes. And I think I shouldn't, now what? I don't consider "sin" real. This is a religious belief that man is sinful, I'm not religious therefore I don't carry any guilt outside of myself and my own mind. I reflect on the wrong that I did and work on being a better person when interacting with other humans.You feel you are without sin and so do I. We reached the same goal with different paths. That is the only thing that matters. I don't care nor do I judge how you got there, you should not care nor judge how I got there either. If you do, then your only point is to confirm your belief to yourself, and you don't actually care that people have found inner peace - you just want to be right. I don't. I'm glad you found inner peace, if Stile and I are telling you we have as well, then you should be happy for us, also. Everyone in the world? Have you asked them?How can you say this with any certainty? The point was that even though the person never "spoke" to god, or "felt the holy spirit," they were still able to find spirituality and balance in their lives.So, perhaps, if there is a god, he has different ways in which one can acheive spirituality and harmony. Your way works for you, my way works for me, Stiles' works for him, and in the end we are all better people because of it. Doesn't that seem good enough?- Oni

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If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little.
~George Carlin

Which is an absurdity, if you think about it, for it was God that imparted the "fleshly" things to begin with. Whatever human nature man has is directly attributed to what God had in mind. Can't really get around that inescapable truth, if in fact what the bible relays is true. Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

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"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. " Thomas Paine

The problem is, Jaywill, is that there is no way of knowing with the least bit of certainty either way until we cross that threshold for ourselves. At the end of the day when all things are said and done, the bottom line is that it comes down to two opposing sets of "beliefs." Onifre believes he will melt away in to oblivion and you believe there will be an accounting of ourselves on the day of our judgment. There is only one immutable fact in that, and that is that you both believe in something based on some superficial evidence. And that's only because we just don't know. We are no more equipped to answer that question than when the first human pondered it. We all quietly suffer that torment. Every man, woman, and child's greatest enemy is themselves. And we all desperately seek an answer beyond ourselves. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. Again, no way of truly knowing. I'm sure you'll tell us all about your relationship with Jesus and how you know he's real, but we don't know what is wishful thinking on your part and what is actual. So, again, we are at an impasse. Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

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"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. " Thomas Paine

not at all. When the bible speaks of 'fleshly' things, its talking about immorality, not physical needs. there is nothing wrong with physical things.physical and fleshly are not the same thing.Also, not everything that is considered 'spiritual' is spoken of in a positive light. Some spiritualistic practices were condemned by God such as seeing a professional foreteller of events for instance. Spirit mediums were also forbidden practices, as was reading the stars in the way astrologers did.

The bible is not speaking about our physicality and our physical needs.Flesh is used figuratively when speaking of sin as is seen in Galatians 5:19-20Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like thesethese 'works of flesh' are what im referring to...not our general physical needs