Murder by prayer: When is enough, enough?

And those hospitals would have suredly been sued and prosecuted for that neglect. We aren't advocating a double standard: neglect gets punished no matter who does it.Further, you ignore the millions of cases each year where lives are saved -- definitvely saved, as in "that person would have certainly died if the surgery hadn't happened" -- by ERs and hospitals. You have yet to provide a single case where faith healing was demonstrated to work.So, as it stands, medicine is better than faith healing. This is a fact. And those on the better side certainly have the right to point fingers at the one that clearly isn't working.

Which is a good argument againt medical neglect. 'Cos it kills people. But "our side" is that people should not suffer from medical neglect.When you point out that people can die of medical neglect you support our case.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Rights come with responsibilities. For example, we have the right to drive a car, but we must drive it responsibly. The same applies to children, we have the right to raise our kids the way we see fit but we have to raise them responsibly. They aren't prosecuted for practicing their faith, they are prosecuted for neglecting their child. Are you saying that as long as it is your faith, you can do whatever you want with your child? Ok, fair enough, but I will at least try, just like they could've tried a doctor. They might not belief that it works, fortunately for them, medicine has no requirement of belief for it to work or not. Not that I've seen, but let 'ss ee what you've got. Of course it would. It's their child's life, afterall. Like I said, no matter what my beliefs are, I will try anything if my child lay dying. This does not absolve them from their responsibilities. Also, this almost sounds like a plea for diminished mental capacity (forgot the legal term), are you saying that by following their church they were acting in a non-normal way of thinking (like insanity pleas)?

i didn't criticize i made a point. just like i am now. this is not a one time occurance as misdiagnosis happens every day. death by faith healing, when compared to all true faith healings is very rare. in fact i would be fairly certain that if you compared the number of faith healing deaths with the number of deaths caused by medical science you would find the latter to be far greater than the former.it all depends upon how you define perfection. God gives an answer each time just because one doesn't like it doesn't mean faith healing failed. in medicine you can give a patient a drug and see the results you want in most cases {unless God has determined that his/her life is at its end}. drugs do not make decisions BUT God does thus we cannot make a pie chart or graph to determine success or failure, God does not work that way.in your minds you only want 1 answer--the person to live but life isn't like that and american paranoia against death has become appalling where no one is safe practicing any form of belief any more because some closed-minded bigot wants to make political points{no i know some of you aren't american but their mindset has spread throughout the western world and one can see the changes as the years go by}you cannot aoid death even with faith healing and i have used mickey mantle to illustrate this but you all ignore it so i am beginning to think you only want to hear what you want to hear.

this is a retarded and absurd answer. medical professionals neglect those who come to them for help and they die thus it proves people need medical attention or they will die. duh. just out of this world on the stupidty meterno it supports the fact that those hwo do not do faith healing die because the so-called simple procedure to save their lives was denied them.it is easy for doctors like ther one investigating that church in oregon to make the claim a simple procedure would have saved their lives; it is another matter to be honest and say but they may not receive that procedure because the medical establishment rejects people because they do not like their looks, their behavior, their lack of insurance, their lack of money, their lack transportation.it is nice to stand in hypocritical judgment and and make idealistic claims but it is totally another story to when the rubber meets the road.

so now raising kids is equated to driving a car, please... your definition of responsile is as subjective as your definition of neglect.cars come with rule books and definitive answers onwhat to do. the only rule book that comes with kids the majorityof the people of the world reject--the Bible.i think you all are getting desperate to support your side of the discussion. come on, a car..you would be laughed out of parenting class. as i have shown, they were not neglectful. that charge is an end run and you know it. it is easy to claim shouldas wouldas, couldas. they didn't, they practiced their faith and lost. i do not support criminal prosecution in these cases nor will i accept the emotional prejudicial arguments 'they/he/she were/was a child. doesn't work with me. a child is no more special than an adult and one of the big problems is that too many people focus on children at the expense of the adults. take care of the father andhe will take care of his family--that is his job.oh, you can try and God may have mercy on you and heal them and if He does i will expect you to give Him the glory and then convert to following Jesus. yes it does because you never know that when you inject it into your ar or yourchild's or any patient's body that you may have injected some from a bad or corrupted batch or the doctor gave too much or too little or any number o fproblems that could go wrong.it takes a lot of faith or belief when you use medicines.{remember the tylenol poisonings of the 80's. those people though tthey were taking good medicine as well} i have been searching for statistics, results anything that would provide some insight to true faith healing and so far all i have come up with are millions of results that either tell what it is, or its some attack on faith healing or its benny hinn or some other fraud.i will let you know if i find anything constructive and honest and guess what--so did they. i think it goes a long ways in doing so as it presents state of mind and emotional trurmoil which would interfere with making decisins the athiest would approve of.you said you would try anything, your emotional turmoil is making you go against your beliefs and the situation would demonstrate that if the cause was severe enough you would abandon your beliefs for a desired result.these people did not do that, why should they be castigated/punished for not compromising? you got the legal term correct but i wouldn't go that far simply because someone would use that defense against allowing those parents to care for other children they may have.not insanity plea but that the atmosphere surrounding them made it virtually impossible for these parents to make a different choice than the one they did.

Quite so. Some people do indeed need medical attention or they will die. And I have said and will say again that it is wrong if people are denied medicine on such grounds.How about you?

No-one "equated" them, but they do have one thing in common --- if you do it irresponsibly, you could kill someone.

No. They obviously didn't. Because otherwise, they would not be getting prosecuted for neglecting their child through not providing medical aid when necessary.They had a simple choice: get something that is demonstrated to work exceedingly often and which is so easily provided they could have done it in ten minutes, or try something, which you have said yourself you cannot support with evidence, that is known to be horribly inconsistent and nowhere near reliable enough.They neglected their responsibilities. Hence they are prosecuted for neglect.
They denied the rights of their child. Hence neither they nor you has any ability to claim they were just exercising their rights. Hence the judicial system has every right to punish them for their nonactions.Attempting to deny that modern medicine works is a folly. Attempting to claim faith healing as a viable alternative is almost something deserving of a conviction for its sheer ignorance and moral blindness.And if you cannot see why letting any person -- let alone a child that cannot do anything to defend themselves against the practise -- die for the mere absence of a single injection is wrong, then perhaps you should check in to some sort of therapy; there's clearly something wrong with you in that case where you don't know why letting someone die is bad.

Arch clearly shows such an extraordinary degree of religiously inspired willful ignorance and cognitive dissonance that I'm surprised we're still entertaining him with responses. It feels like encouraging a Tourettes sufferer to come out with ever more outrageous involuntary utterances. It's a bit too voyeuristic for me.

Well...

Buz is stuck on repeat with the volume down;

Dawn B. is getting backed into a corner;

Bolder is just thrashing wildly;

Niumshaan's been blocked for more off-topic gibberish;

ICDesign's playing fair and actually trying to understand, which I applaud, so there's just a direct exchange of information.

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So there's not a wide choice of creationists with which to actually debate. Plus ol' archy is just so whacked that you can't really believe it. I really do expect his next message to be somethng along the lines of

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quote:

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Hahaha, fooled you all into thinking I was a creo! Lol, isn't trolling fun?

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Yeah, welcome to EvC-land Have you come across slevesque and Flyer yet? Two very intelligent, articulate creationists. Great guys/gals. See how they leap to the defense of Arch and DB/EMA and Bolder-Dash? No? There's a reason for that. They are utterly ashamed of what they see and will have no part of such anti-intellectual buffoonery - a bit damning for the likes of the above.I really don't give either of slevesque or Flyer many years as YECs. They'll be eating themselves inside-out with the recognised dissonance and will need to make peace somewhere.

they got prosecuted because atheists allowed themselves to not understand the situation and let their emotions blind them to the reality.you all listen to what you want then proceed from there. a doctor far removed from the case states that they could have been have been healed with a simple procedure and you all blindly believe him because it fuels your animosity towards those of religion. then you hear nothing else because it spoils your goal. as i have shown, it was not a simple choice. you refuse to open your mind to the facts and harp on the ideal not the reality which distorts the discussion. they didn't neglect theier responsibilities, religious people do not answer to atheists, tey answer to God whom the atheist will answer to as well.te did not deny any rights of the child and you blow this out of proportion and i have shown you where child rights are not as expansive as you want them to be. you people are only harping on generalities not the real facts. the judicial system did not have the right to prosecute or punish them. the parents did no wrong. if anything the prosecutors should have attacked the policy of the church. i have shown that there i sno guarantee that the modern medicine will work and you know that. you just harp onthis because you do not like religious people. since millions have been successfully healed it is a viable option but spiritual rules differ from secular ones and you all do not grasp this. they didn't let the child die and the parents have te right to decide for the child. even when the child decided for themselves you do not allow them to make that decision an di cite the minnesota case.BE HONEST, you only want them to decide what you want or there is somethign wrong. sorry but religions do not follow secularists as the secularlist is wrong.

[qs]Arch clearly shows such an extraordinary degree of religiously inspired willful ignorance and cognitive dissonance that I'm surprised we're still entertaining him with responses. [qs] it has nothing to do with ignorance on my part but there is a lot on yours as you all refuse to discuss the vulnerabilities of modern medicine as you try to twist words to support your blind belief in it.i have already provided 4 points why this particular faith healing failed please go back and read them. it has been shown that modern medicine is not a guarantee and is mainly an excuse to attack religious people. faith healing deaths are rare more rare than modern medicine deaths please clean up your own house first before going after religious people.you know 'remove your beam...' please this assessment is as false as your arguments. you just want creationists to leave their beliefs and refuse to admit you all are wrong.they can't do that for they have to deal with God, the problem lies with you as you will not accept any alternative to your own way. as soon as religion or anything connected to religion is mentioned your mind is closed and you attack not discuss.{and your discussions are dishonest--i have yet to hear rebuttals to the mickey mantle example, the lack of perfection in medical care, the abuse in medical care, the abuse of gov. officials towards religious people so you have no foundation for one of your arguments.neglect is an excuse only as it ignores the fact that the parents did not neglect their child, they just chose an option you do not like. you all claim that christians force their ways upon thers well the reality is it is the atheist who forces his or her way on others.}i am a creationist and not a troll, you just want it to be so so you can ignore the truth i have presented with God's help.

i will say this Huntard has been the most honest and most sincere person of all your crowd and a good discusser even though we do not agree on all points.