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Author Topic:   Is the bible authoritive and truly inspired?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 1 of 386 (517363)
07-31-2009 11:25 AM


This topic is proposed with this statement from another thread in mind
quote:
Some Bible writers had authority to make laws and some didn't. So explain why these authors, known and unknown, have the authority to make a legal law? Inspiration is not authority.
Of the forty men who wrote the bible, all of these were imperfect, subject to weaknesses and error. The 3 questions I would like to discuss is:
quote:
1. Was it possible for these imperfect men to produce a record that is actually Gods message?
2. How do we know they did not write of their own impulse, but were inspired by God as they claim?
3. How do we know the writings we have today are the same as they were written by the original men who wrote it.
1. Was it possible for these imperfect men to produce a record that is actually Gods message?
The writer of Acts says that God used Angels to transmit his messages to humans. Acts 7:53. He never spoke personally to any man, but his Angels did. Moses was instructed: "Write down for yourself these words." And the same applied to the msg's of the Prophets. Sometimes though he used dreams and visions to communicate his message to humans one example being Daniel 9 where he has a vision of the wild beasts.
It was then up to the Bible writer to select words and expressions to describe in meaningful terms what they had seen.
At this point it may be seen as a work of men for the reason that the writers had to put pen to paper, however God also used one other thing in order to accomplish this work....holy spirit. David says that it Gods spirit was upon his tongue at 2Samuel 23:2. So the spirit of God was used to guide the writers.
It means the writer had his mind stimulated by Gods spirit and was moved to express the inspired message in his own words. An evidence of this is the fact that some writers openly admit that they did not understand the message.
Daniel 12:8-9 8Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: "O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?" And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end"
This is one reason why we can be sure that the bible writers were not merely writing for their own glory or prestige to obtain a following of disciples.
Now while its true that some of the writings were written well after the events (gospels for example) Gods spirit was responsible for producing an accurate record. Jesus explained to his apostles that a helper would 'bring back to your minds all the things I told you" at John 14:26
So it certainly is possible that the messages God gave to imperfect men, were transmitted accurately through Gods own guidance.
____________________________________________________________________________
2. How do we know they did not write of their own impulse, but were inspired by God as they claim?
There are examples of writers giving their own thoughts and Paul was one who openly did this on occasion ie 1Cor 7:12, 25 & 40 "To the others I say, yes, I, not the Lord" & "Now concerning virgins I have no command from the Lord, but I give my opinion."
Obviously for the topic being discussed, Paul could not quote a direct teaching from Jesus so he gave his "opinion" and stated it to be such. But the fact that some writers did this, does not mean that their writing was not inspired by God because if he was writing under direction of Gods spirit then his opinion had divine guidance and expressed Gods own view.
This is confirmed by the fact that the apostle Peter accepted Pauls writings as 'written in wisdom' and his letters were handed around to the congregations by Peter (see 2Pet 3:15-16)
If Peter had any doubts about Pauls inspiration, he would not have promoted those letters.
The Bible quotes the statements of men or relates what they did under certain circumstances and the context generally makes it clear whether their course should be imitated or avoided. A good example is the book of Job. large portions of that book deal with the wrong views expressed by Job and his 3 friends about God. When facts were misapplied, the bible writer (moses in this case) clearly points it out and shows that the words of the men were not from God.
However, there are other passages where all the details are not spelled out and Gods view on the matter is not addressed. Its in these passages where flaws and contradictions appear to be found. That is why some persons, on reading a certain account, question whether God was really just and fair in what he did.
Now to me, this is another evidence of divine inspiration because if this book was merely mans, and those men were trying to control people by their invention of a religion, then why leave such gaps that cannot be filled? This isnt something a human writer would deliberately do if they were trying to win converts because it would be defeating the purpose of drawing people and rather repel them. If you want evidence for how people are repelled from the bible just look at the discussion im having with DevilsAdvocate in the 'fundamentalist' thread lol.
So Why would a divinely inspired book create these contentious accounts that seem more designed to repel people rather then draw them? Its how God tests our heart according to Hebrews 4:12
quote:
"For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart"
.
Someone who really doesnt want God in their life can quite easily close the book and throw it in the bin after reading some of those accounts we've been discussing in the other thread. But God wants us to search deeper then what merely appears on the pages. It really does require a lot of deep study to understand why such things happened and how God views things...not only does it require study, but it requires his spirit and this is something you only get if you ask for it.
So for these reasons, we can be sure that the writings were inspired by God and not merely written by men. Men would have buttered it up, and made themselves look like amazing holy vessels the same way the priest of today do. Yet they didnt. Even Moses was shown to be punished and refused entry to the promised land by God. If Moses was writing for himself there is no way in the world he would have humiliated himself in such a way. The evidence is that God moved/inspired what was recorded and this makes the bible authoritative in everything it says. And for this reason the laws and commands cannot be viewed as coming from men, but they should be viewed as coming from God just as the Mosaic law was. Even though moses was the one who wrote it and dictated it to the people, It was coming from God. The same with Jesus, the same with the Apostles and yes, even Paul.
________________________________________________________________________
3. How do we know the writings we have today are the same as they were written by the original men who wrote it.
I know this is a contentious issue for many people because after thousands of years you would expect errors to creep in and this has happened.
Thankfully, they still have many thousands of the original language manuscripts available today. (One of the oldest being the septuagaint from 300 BCE) They use these original language manuscripts to compare with the later ones and have been able to trace errors. The errors that have been identified have always been very minor and mostly to do with grammar or spelling or duplicating a word or sentence.
In some instances though, additions have been made which were not seen in earlier manuscripts. One example is 1 John 5:7, which seems to teach the trinity. This verse speaks of the 'three witness bearers' However this statement is not found in any manuscript earlier then the 15th century...so its very obvious that its an inaccuracy...perhaps deliberately inserted to perpetuate an untrue doctrine.
Obviously no original copies exist today because the writers wrote on perishable materials such as papyrus and vellum. But the method of how those originals were copied and recopied is what makes the ones we have today so accurate. The men who made the copies were called scribes, it was a profession, and their only job was to make copies of scrolls. When they found the dead sea scrolls, it proved beyond doubt that the scriptures had been accurately copied for centuries.
So we do know that the writings we have today are as accurate as the very oldest living manuscripts. Those manuscripts were created by the jewish scribes who were a professional group dedicated to the copying of the law. They had methodical ways to make copies, the masoretes for instance had to count each letter to ensure accuracy. So it was more then just a matter or writing up a copy by hand...they were extremely meticulous, going so far as to count not only the words copied but the letters also. Also, because Hebrew consisted only of consonants, if a single letter was added or left out it would have changed one word into another. The slightest error of a single letter would mean that entire section of the roll was rejected as unfit for synagogue use.
So the copies had to be absolute before they were accepted by the jewish priests. A copiest was not allowed to write even a single word from memory, they had to read the words aloud from the scroll they were copying before they put pen to paper.
But again, the serophim (BCE copyists) did make alterations in later manuscripts. The Masoretes (CE copyists), were able to see the alterations made by the earlier Sopherim, and they recorded them in the margin or at the end of the Hebrew text...so the masoretic manuscripts highlight the changes that took place in the same way our modern scholars are able to see the small errors made in some copied manuscripts.
The fact that we know what the errors are means they can be corrected and therefore we have a bible that is essentially the same as what was originally written.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Admin, : Fix spelling of title.
Edited by Admin, : Fix title again.

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Message 2 of 386 (517501)
08-01-2009 7:13 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Is the bible authoritive and trully inspired? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 3 of 386 (517695)
08-02-2009 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
07-31-2009 11:25 AM


Who Are The Authors?
quote:
Of the forty men who wrote the bible, all of these were imperfect, subject to weaknesses and error. The 3 questions I would like to discuss is:
Before I address your questions, please list your 40 authors, the name of the people who compiled and redacted the writings, and which canon you are using in this discussion.
Edited by purpledawn, : Extended request.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peg, posted 07-31-2009 11:25 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
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ochaye
Member (Idle past 5239 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 4 of 386 (517713)
08-02-2009 10:09 AM


The Bible has claimed the following of people as it is, on internal evidence, quite irrespective of its provenance. It induces faith even in people who read it and detest it, as a thousand daily posts on the 'net, and two thousand years of hypocrisy make crystal clear. That capacity does not necessarily make its message a true one, but it probably means that discussion of its authorship and inspiration can be of limited scope in effecting significant changes in its following, either in size or character.

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 5 of 386 (517884)
08-03-2009 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by purpledawn
08-02-2009 7:08 AM


Re: Who Are The Authors?
Moses (leader chosen by God)- genesis, exodus, Leviticus, deuteronomy, Job, Psalm 90 & 91
Joshua (army commander appointed by Moses) - Joshua
Samuel, Gad & Nathan (prophets) - Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel
Gad and Nathan (prophets) - 2 Samuel
Jeremiah (prophet) - 1 Kings, 2 Kings, Jeremiah, Lemantations
Ezra (priest, scholar, copyist) - 1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra
Nehemiah (Slave of King Artaxerxes)- Nehemiah
Solomon (3rd King of Isreal) Psalm 127, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, song of solomn
Mordecai (Slave of King Artaxerxes)- Ester
David (Shepherd & later King of isreal)- wrote 73 of the Psalms.
Asaph (Musician & musical arranger at temple)- wrote 12 Psalms
Son(s) of Korah (Levites in temple service) wrote 11 psalms
Heman (Prominent Isrealite of tribe of Judah) wrote Psalm 88
Ethan (Prominent Isrealiste of the tribe of Judah) wrote Psalm 89
Isaiah (Prophet) - Isaiah
Ezekiel (Priest & Prophet) - Ezekiel,
Daniel (Captive slave and Prophet) - Daniel
Hosea (Prophet) - Hosea
Joel (Prophet) - Joel
Amos (prophet) - Amos
Obadiah (prophet) - Obadiah
Jonah(prophet)- Jonah
Micah (prophet)- Micah
Nahum (prophet)- Nahum
Habukkuk (prophet) - Habukkuk
Zephaniah (prophet) - Zephaniah
Haggai (priest and prophet) - Haggai
Zechariah (prophet) - Zechariah
Malachi (prophet) - Malachi
the traditional view is that the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures was fixed by the end of the fifth centuryBCE by Nehamiah. There is also the word of Josephus in his work Against Apion where he referes to all of the above books as recognized by the Jewish religious body of his day. (note that none of the apocryphal books were accepted in jewish cannon)
_________________________________________________________________
Matthew (Jew, son of a tax collector, Apostle of Christ)- Gospel of Matthew
Mark(Disciple of Christ) - Gospel of Mark
Luke (Disciple of Chirst) - Gospel of Luke, Acts of Apostles
John (Apostle of Christ) - Gospel of John,
Paul (Apostle of Christ) - Romans, 1-2Corinthians, Galations, Ephesians, Philipians, Colosians, 1-2Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews,
James (1/2 brother of Jesus Christ by Mary)- James
Peter (Apostle of Christ)- 1-2 Peter
Jude (1/2 brother of Jesus Christ by Mary) - Jude
certain early christians began to keep collections of the chrsitain writings and what we have in our bibles today (all of the above) are the books that were recognized as being inspired books in many of the earliest catelogues. (Cyril of Jerusalem & Athanasius of Alexandria had compiled each book listed above)
______________________________________
Im happy to discuss any of these individually.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 6 of 386 (517912)
08-03-2009 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Peg
08-03-2009 5:52 AM


Re: Who Are The Authors?
Im happy to discuss any of these individually.
Fine, let's start with Moses. Give evidence that Moses wrote any othe books that you attribute to him other than tradition.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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Theodoric
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Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 7 of 386 (517913)
08-03-2009 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Peg
08-03-2009 5:52 AM


Re: Who Are The Authors?
Lets start with Moses
Nowhere in these books is there any mention that they are written by Moses.
There are also many verses obviously not written by him.
Numbers 12:3
quote:
(Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.)
There are also references that show that he was a long gone prophet.
Exodus 11:3
quote:
10 There has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom Yahweh knew face to face, 11 in all the signs and the wonders, which Yahweh sent him to do in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land,
Also, there are anachronisms a plenty.
In the book of judges. Judges 18:27-29 to be exact. We learn that the city of Laish was conquered and changed to Dan.
Judges 18:29
quote:
They named it Dan after their forefather Dan, who was born to Israel”though the city used to be called Laish
But in Genesis 14:14
quote:
When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan
How could Moses mention Dan when it didn't exist yet?
I would like to acknowledge that this line of reasoning is derived from "The Rejection of Pascals Wager: A Skeptics guide to the Bible and the Historical Jesus" by Paul Tobin

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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Message 8 of 386 (517931)
08-03-2009 11:21 AM


Details Details
There have been a number of debates that have zeroed in on the subject of the details of authorship of the Bible. There is much more to this topic than that. Can we try and focus on the main point of the topic rather than one particular detail? Thanks.

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 9 of 386 (517933)
08-03-2009 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Peg
08-03-2009 5:52 AM


Re: Who Are The Authors?
So you are going with traditional thought. Needless to say I lean towards the modern thought. See link for table.
Old Testament Authors
New Testament Authors
quote:
the traditional view is that the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures was fixed by the end of the fifth century BCE by Nehamiah. There is also the word of Josephus in his work Against Apion where he referes to all of the above books as recognized by the Jewish religious body of his day. (note that none of the apocryphal books were accepted in jewish cannon)
So are you using the final Jewish canon for the OT or the Protestant canon for the OT?
If you are not accepting the Catholic canon for the OT, why not?
Canons of the Hebrew Bible
Can we agree that before the Jewish canon was finalized, Jesus and his followers used the Septuagint which included the following books?
Pentateuch - Genesis; Exodus; Leviticus; Numbers; Deuteronomy
Histories - Joshua; Judges; Ruth; 1-4 Kingdoms; 1-2 Chronicles "things left over"; 1-2 Esdras; Esther (expanded); Judith; Tobit
Wisdom - Psalms (expanded); Proverbs; Ecclesiastes; Song of Songs; Job; Wisdom of Solomon; Sirach
Prophecies - The Twelve; Isaiah; Jeremiah; Baruch; Lamentations; Letter of Jeremiah; Ezekiel; Daniel (expanded); 1-2 Maccabees; 3 Maccabees (sometimes); 4 Maccabees (sometimes)

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 10 of 386 (517973)
08-03-2009 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
07-31-2009 11:25 AM


Man is the Authority
Well we are going to be at odds since you lean towards traditionally attributed authors and I lean towards the modern thought when it comes to authorship. When it comes to the OT I lean towards the documentary hypothesis as presented by Richard Elliott Friedman in his book entitled “Who Wrote The Bible?” When it comes to the NT, I lean towards the works of Edgar Goodspeed. This doesn’t mean that I won’t ever disagree with their position.
It is interesting that Judaism and Christianity consider their canons closed. By whose authority do they decide that God will not provide anymore revelations?
These canonical books have been developed through debate and agreement by the religious authorities of their respective faiths. Believers consider these canonical books to be inspired by God or to express the authoritative history of the relationship between God and his people. Books excluded from a particular canon are considered non-canonical ” however, many disputed books considered non-canonical or even apocryphal by some are considered Biblical apocrypha or Deuterocanonical or fully canonical, by others
So far authority seems to be given my man to the books in the canon and not God.
1. Was it possible for these imperfect men to produce a record that is actually Gods message?
Whether man is perfect or imperfect is irrelevant. Do the writers in the Protestant Bible, known and unknown, present God’s message? (Since you started using the word message, please keep to the word message and don’t change to “word”.) One would have to understand what the writers were telling their respective audiences to even address this issue. Picking and choosing a line here and there isn’t fruitful.
quote:
The writer of Acts says that God used Angels to transmit his messages to humans. Acts 7:53. He never spoke personally to any man, but his Angels did.
That is not a true statement and not what the author of Acts said.
God spoke to Moses: Exodus 3:14-E, 3:15-E, 4:4-E, 4:14-E, 4:19-J, 4:21-E, 4:30-E, 6:1-E, 6:2-P, 6:10-P, 6:26-R, 7:1-P, 7:8-P, 7:14-E, 7:19-P, 8:1-P, 8:5-E, 8:8-E, 8:16-E, 8:20-E, 9:1-E, 9:8-P, 9:13-E, 9:22-E, 10:1-E, 10:12-E, 10:21-E, 11:1-E, 11:9-R, 12:1-P, 12:43-P, 13:1-E, 14:1-P, 14:15-P, 14:26-P, 16:4-J, 16:11-P, 16:28-P, 17:14-E, 19:3-E, 19:9-E, 19:10-J, 20:22-E, 24:12-E, 25:1-P, 30:11-P, 30:17-P, 30:22-P, 30:34-P, 31:1-P, 31:12-P, 32:7-E, 32:9-E, 33:17-E, 34:1-E, 34:27-J, 40:1-P. More in Leviticus.
God spoke to Aaron: Exodus 4:27-E, 6:26-R, 7:8-P, 8:8-E, 9:8-P, 12:1-P, 12:43-P.
The author of Acts actually had Stephen say: . you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it. The reader should then look back at the story of Moses to see if the law was put into effect by angels. I don’t see that the story of Moses supports that statement. Does the unknown author of Acts have the authority to change the story?
Please make sure you are quoting the Bible authors accurately.
quote:
David says that it Gods spirit was upon his tongue at 2Samuel 23:2. So the spirit of God was used to guide the writers.
That verse doesn’t support that God’s spirit guided all the writers of the Bible manuscripts. It only supports that the Spirit of the Lord spoke through David concerning what was recorded in 2 Samuel 23:3-4. Even the author of Samuel is unknown.
quote:
This is one reason why we can be sure that the bible writers were not merely writing for their own glory or prestige to obtain a following of disciples.
Your argument doesn’t support any such position.
quote:
Now while its true that some of the writings were written well after the events (gospels for example) Gods spirit was responsible for producing an accurate record. Jesus explained to his apostles that a helper would 'bring back to your minds all the things I told you" at John 14:26
So it certainly is possible that the messages God gave to imperfect men, were transmitted accurately through Gods own guidance.
Unfortunately, none of the authors in the NT were one of the 12 Disciples, which is who Jesus was talking to in John 14:26. It wasn’t an all encompassing statement. If you make it an all encompassing statement, you are changing the text.
Nothing you’ve shown shows that the actual authors were being guided by God’s spirit, which is also not inspiration in the way that you are using it. You haven’t shown support that their messages were actually from God.
2. How do we know they did not write of their own impulse, but were inspired by God as they claim?
Where does Paul claim to be inspired by God? You aren’t supporting the idea that they didn’t write under their own impulse. They may have been inspired by the religious situation of their time, but did they actually speak for God? Inspiration is not dictation.
quote:
This is confirmed by the fact that the apostle Peter accepted Pauls writings as 'written in wisdom' and his letters were handed around to the congregations by Peter (see 2Pet 3:15-16)
If Peter had any doubts about Pauls inspiration, he would not have promoted those letters.
2 Peter (100-160CE) is not considered to be written by Peter. Peter supposedly died before the destruction of the temple.
Edgar Goodspeed
Problems. One of the most interesting and significant things about II Peter is the wide acquaintance of its author with Christian literature. In 1:17 he quotes the Transfiguration oracle in the form given it by Matthew (17:5) who seems to have conflated the Baptism and Transfiguration oracles and used the result in both places.[1] In 1:15 II Peter reflects knowledge of the tradition that Peter was the voucher back of the Gospel of Mark, hinted at in I Pet. 5:13 and preserved in Papias. [2] In 1:17 the writer alludes to the prophecy of Peter's martyrdom given in the Epilogue to John, 21:18. But as this was written to be added to the gospel when it was made a part of the Fourfold Gospel corpus, knowledge of it means knowledge of that corpus, so that the writer of II Peter knew the Fourfold Gospel.
The unknown author promoted Paul’s letters. Not really the same as one of the original disciples giving Paul a stamp of approval.
quote:
A good example is the book of Job. large portions of that book deal with the wrong views expressed by Job and his 3 friends about God. When facts were misapplied, the bible writer (moses in this case) clearly points it out and shows that the words of the men were not from God.
Job is fiction or a parable and the writer is unknown. It wasn’t Moses. According to the introduction in my NIV study Bible it is dated somewhere between the reign of Solomon to the exile. A little late for Moses. The inspiration for this parable was supposedly the teaching that bad things only happened to people who sinned. The story was to show that bad things also happen to good people who don’t sin. It doesn’t show that the writing wasn’t by the writer’s own impulse.
quote:
Now to me, this is another evidence of divine inspiration because if this book was merely mans, and those men were trying to control people by their invention of a religion, then why leave such gaps that cannot be filled? This isnt something a human writer would deliberately do if they were trying to win converts because it would be defeating the purpose of drawing people and rather repel them. If you want evidence for how people are repelled from the bible just look at the discussion im having with DevilsAdvocate in the 'fundamentalist' thread lol.
You’re speculating and I’m not going to address generalities. Refer to a specific text concerning the issue. Don’t underestimate what a writer will do.
quote:
So Why would a divinely inspired book create these contentious accounts that seem more designed to repel people rather then draw them? Its how God tests our heart according to Hebrews 4:12
The writings were meant for us today. Maybe they didn’t repel people then. Please specify text.
quote:
So for these reasons, we can be sure that the writings were inspired by God and not merely written by men. Men would have buttered it up, and made themselves look like amazing holy vessels the same way the priest of today do. Yet they didnt. Even Moses was shown to be punished and refused entry to the promised land by God. If Moses was writing for himself there is no way in the world he would have humiliated himself in such a way. The evidence is that God moved/inspired what was recorded and this makes the bible authoritative in everything it says. And for this reason the laws and commands cannot be viewed as coming from men, but they should be viewed as coming from God just as the Mosaic law was. Even though moses was the one who wrote it and dictated it to the people, It was coming from God. The same with Jesus, the same with the Apostles and yes, even Paul.
You’re speculating again. No you can’t be sure. You have no idea what ancient writers would or wouldn’t do. Maybe these writings were buttered up for their time.
You don’t seem to have anything substantial to support the idea that all the writers were guided by God directly and not their own initiative concerning the world around them.
3. How do we know the writings we have today are the same as they were written by the original men who wrote it.
quote:
Thankfully, they still have many thousands of the original language manuscripts available today. (One of the oldest being the septuagaint from 300 BCE)
The Septuagint is a translation, not an original writing. We don’t know that the oldest versions available are originals. We have no idea what changes a manuscript went through before it became part of the canon. Also since many of the NT authors are unknown, we don’t know if it is by the original person who wrote it.
The writings within the Bible have authority only because men have attached authority to the writings. You have shown that Christians are free to change the meanings and create new dogma and traditions. You’ve shown that man has the authority to change religion.

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 11 of 386 (518305)
08-05-2009 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by purpledawn
08-03-2009 11:37 AM


Re: Who Are The Authors?
purpledawn writes:
So are you using the final Jewish canon for the OT or the Protestant canon for the OT?
If you are not accepting the Catholic canon for the OT, why not?
I go with the traditional Jewish books of their Torah cannon.
I do not agree with the catholic cannon because they included apocryphal books as part of their cannon. Those books contradict the bible on many counts which proves that they were not written under Gods direction.
purpledawn writes:
Can we agree that before the Jewish canon was finalized, Jesus and his followers used the Septuagint which included the following books?
Pentateuch - Genesis; Exodus; Leviticus; Numbers; Deuteronomy
Histories - Joshua; Judges; Ruth; 1-4 Kingdoms; 1-2 Chronicles "things left over"; 1-2 Esdras; Esther (expanded); Judith; Tobit
Wisdom - Psalms (expanded); Proverbs; Ecclesiastes; Song of Songs; Job; Wisdom of Solomon; Sirach
Prophecies - The Twelve; Isaiah; Jeremiah; Baruch; Lamentations; Letter of Jeremiah; Ezekiel; Daniel (expanded); 1-2 Maccabees; 3 Maccabees (sometimes); 4 Maccabees (sometimes)
Jesus did use the Septuagint and we know that because the NT writers wrote hundreds of direct quotations and references to the Hebrew Scriptures based on the Septuagint.
But, with regard to the apocryphal writings, it cannot be stated categorically that the Apocryphal books were originally included in that work. Its true that apocryphal books are found in many early copies of the Septuagint but since no original copies of the Septuagint are extant, it cannot be proven that they were always a part of it.
What can be proven is the fact that Apocryphal writings were written after the translation of the Septuagint began.
The scolars in Alexandria who created the Septuagint would have chosen the books to translate before they began the work. If no apocryphal books were written before 280bce then obviously none of them could have been on the original list of books selected for translation.
more tangible evidence exists in the writings of Josephus (against Apion) where he lists all the holy books that were viewed as sacred writings and he does not mention one apocryphal book.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by purpledawn, posted 08-03-2009 11:37 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ochaye, posted 08-05-2009 7:26 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 14 by purpledawn, posted 08-05-2009 1:35 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 12 of 386 (518315)
08-05-2009 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by purpledawn
08-03-2009 3:30 PM


Re: Man is the Authority
purpledawn writes:
Well we are going to be at odds since you lean towards traditionally attributed authors and I lean towards the modern thought when it comes to authorship. When it comes to the OT I lean towards the documentary hypothesis as presented by Richard Elliott Friedman in his book entitled “Who Wrote The Bible?” When it comes to the NT, I lean towards the works of Edgar Goodspeed. This doesn’t mean that I won’t ever disagree with their position.
ok, well lets put the authors names aside, and just go with your view that they were written by unknown men.
How does that change what they wrote?
purpledawn writes:
It is interesting that Judaism and Christianity consider their canons closed. By whose authority do they decide that God will not provide anymore revelations?
that is a remarkable point that adds weight to the books being trully inspired.Think about it, if the books were created by men alone, there should be nothing stopping more men from adding new books? Yet the bible cannon seems to have a protective wall around it which has caused it to remain unchanged after thousands of years.
if God was able to inspire the books , then he's also able to protect them.
purpledawn writes:
Do the writers in the Protestant Bible, known and unknown, present God’s message?
what do you mean by the writers in the 'protestant bible'
Protestants use the same bible as everyone else...so excuse my ignorance here but im not sure what you mean???
purpledawn writes:
That is not a true statement and not what the author of Acts said.
God spoke to Moses: ...I don’t see that the story of Moses supports that statement. Does the unknown author of Acts have the authority to change the story? Please make sure you are quoting the Bible authors accurately.
quote:
Exodus 3:2 Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush.
Judges 6:11 Later Jehovah’s angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Oph”rah,...Gid”e·on said to him: “Excuse me, my lord, but if Jehovah is with us, then why has all this come upon us, ...14Upon that Jehovah faced him and said: “Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Mid”i·an’s palm. Do I not send you?"
There is also the account of the parents of Samson. This account says “Jehovah’s angel” and “the angel of the true God.” spoke to them at Judges 13:2-18 In verse 22, Manoah says to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.” Of course he didnt see God face to face, but he saw the representative...the angel.
the Apostle Paul called the Mosaic law "the word spoken through angels" at Hebrews 2:2 and Galatians 3:19
and John says at John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him
And also with regard to Stephens speech, in Acts 7:37-51 he explains that the 'angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai' is in fact Jesus. The christians were presenting new ideas, thats true, but these ideas were not out of harmony with the hebrew scriptures.
quote:
This is the Moses that said to the sons of Israel, 'God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me.'
This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Si”nai and with our forefathers,
and he received living sacred pronouncements to give YOU...vs 51'Obstinate men and uncircumcised in hearts and ears, YOU are always resisting the holy spirit; as YOUR forefathers did, so YOU do. Which one of the prophets did YOUR forefathers not persecute? Yes, they killed those who made announcement in advance concerning the coming of the righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers YOU have now become,YOU who received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it.
purpledawn writes:
Where does Paul claim to be inspired by God? You aren’t supporting the idea that they didn’t write under their own impulse. They may have been inspired by the religious situation of their time, but did they actually speak for God?
Paul wrote: 1 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."
purpledawn writes:
quote: This is confirmed by the fact that the apostle Peter accepted Pauls writings as 'written in wisdom' and his letters were handed around to the congregations by Peter (see 2Pet 3:15-16)
If Peter had any doubts about Pauls inspiration, he would not have promoted those letters.
2 Peter (100-160CE) is not considered to be written by Peter. Peter supposedly died before the destruction of the temple.
edgar goodspeed may not believe that Peter wrote Peter, but the writer says he is 'Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ.(2Pet1:1) and says that this is 'the second letter I am writing you.' (2pet3:1) The christians who received the letter had no reason to doubt who it came from.
purpledawn writes:
The unknown author promoted Paul’s letters. Not really the same as one of the original disciples giving Paul a stamp of approval.
Peter was an apostle of Christ.
purpledawn writes:
Job is fiction or a parable and the writer is unknown. It wasn’t Moses. According to the introduction in my NIV study Bible it is dated somewhere between the reign of Solomon to the exile. A little late for Moses.
according to the oldest tradition, by both Jewish and early Christian scholars, Moses was the writer. Its written in almost identical style to the Pentateuch more then any other writing. Also, Moses came from the area where Job lived...i know you dont believe Job was a real person, but there is nothing in the story that makes Job an allegorical character.
purpledawn writes:
You’re speculating again. No you can’t be sure. You have no idea what ancient writers would or wouldn’t do. Maybe these writings were buttered up for their time.
You don’t seem to have anything substantial to support the idea that all the writers were guided by God directly and not their own initiative concerning the world around them.
although i havnt mentioned it here yet, but prophecies are another sure proof of Gods inspiration. Im not sure if you've studied the prophecies but i have and they provide outstanding evidence of inspiration.
purpledawn writes:
The Septuagint is a translation, not an original writing. We don’t know that the oldest versions available are originals. We have no idea what changes a manuscript went through before it became part of the canon. Also since many of the NT authors are unknown, we don’t know if it is by the original person who wrote it.
I said original 'languages'
the Hebrew scriptures were translated by Jewish scholars into Greek for the Greek speaking Jews. That translation became known as the Septuagint and it is an original language because the Jews were Greek speaking. They translated the scriptures themselves to match a new mother tongue.
Jesus and his disciples were greek and hebrew speaking. This is why the Septuagint is a valuable translation because they could read and write in both languages so the Septuagint would have been accurately translated.
purpledawn writes:
The writings within the Bible have authority only because men have attached authority to the writings. You have shown that Christians are free to change the meanings and create new dogma and traditions. You’ve shown that man has the authority to change religion.
the fact is, we have a bible that has been accurately preserved and we can compare any teaching that someone may want to introduce.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by purpledawn, posted 08-03-2009 3:30 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by purpledawn, posted 08-05-2009 2:41 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 17 by ochaye, posted 08-05-2009 3:06 PM Peg has replied
 Message 18 by Theodoric, posted 08-05-2009 3:11 PM Peg has replied

ochaye
Member (Idle past 5239 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 13 of 386 (518316)
08-05-2009 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Peg
08-05-2009 6:09 AM


Re: Who Are The Authors?
It is not certain that Jesus used the LXX. At an early age he was apparently focussed on the centre of Hebrew learning in Jerusalem, and no translation of Hebrew or its Semitic family could fail to be other than a pale imitation of languages that were like no others, particularly Hebrew itself, due to its particular culture. In his contests with the Jewish religious leaders he would have needed to have been closely familiar with the Hebrew texts, and there are strong signs in his detailed references to their Scriptures that he was familiar with them.
It may be simply that the gospel writers naturally used the familiar LXX in quoting him in their Greek gospels, where it was a fair represention of the original (and it quite often isn't). There is certainly some value to the scholar in the LXX (mostly in checking uncertainties in the Hebrew sources), but its role is much exaggerated by certain sorts of religious people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Peg, posted 08-05-2009 6:09 AM Peg has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 14 of 386 (518349)
08-05-2009 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Peg
08-05-2009 6:09 AM


Re: Who Are The Authors?
quote:
I go with the traditional Jewish books of their Torah cannon.
I do not agree with the catholic cannon because they included apocryphal books as part of their cannon. Those books contradict the bible on many counts which proves that they were not written under Gods direction.
What makes one canon more authoritative than the other?
Since the Jews didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah, why accept their canon which was fixed about 200BCE (not closed)? It was closed about 200CE. That was over 150 years after the death of Jesus. I don't think Christians and Jews were best buds at that time.
Since the Catholic Church is the origin of the Christian religion, why not accept their canon? It closed about 380CE. You accept their New Testament canon. They only got it half right? God wasn't paying attention?
The Protestant Canon didn't come about until 1790CE. That's over 1400 years after the Catholic Canon and over 1500 years after the death of Jesus. Who gave them the authority to change a closed canon?
What you're showing me is that the canon choices are not guided by God. If you can disagree with the choices for the canon and not consider yourself disagreeing with God, then the men determining the canons weren't guided by God.
So if God didn't guide anyone to put these writings together in book form, then how can we trust that the writers were actually guided by God to write what they wrote?
Don't you understand yet? When you pick and choose the pieces you want, change the meaning of sentences and make them contrary to what is plainly written, and change the point of a story you negate the idea that the words are from God.
You an imperfect human have the audacity to change what you say the almighty God guided his followers to write. Who gave you the authority to pick and choose?
quote:
If no apocryphal books were written before 280bce then obviously none of them could have been on the original list of books selected for translation.
So we can't agree on what was in the Septuagint before the canon was closed. Bummer
Canonical Books of the OT

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Peg, posted 08-05-2009 6:09 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by ochaye, posted 08-05-2009 3:01 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 19 by Peg, posted 08-06-2009 7:43 AM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 15 of 386 (518362)
08-05-2009 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Peg
08-05-2009 7:26 AM


Re: Man is the Authority
quote:
How does that change what they wrote?
It doesn't change what was written.
quote:
that is a remarkable point that adds weight to the books being trully inspired.Think about it, if the books were created by men alone, there should be nothing stopping more men from adding new books? Yet the bible cannon seems to have a protective wall around it which has caused it to remain unchanged after thousands of years.
if God was able to inspire the books , then he's also able to protect them.
No it doosn't have a protective wall. The Protestants changed the canon in 1790.
quote:
what do you mean by the writers in the 'protestant bible'
Protestants use the same bible as everyone else...so excuse my ignorance here but im not sure what you mean???
Please remember our own comments. You don't accept the Catholic Canon. You accept the Protestant One or the Jewish OT.
Your statement was untrue in Message 1.
Peg writes:
He (God) never spoke personally to any man, but his Angels did.
I showed scripture in Message 10 that supported my comment that your statement was untrue.
quote:
Paul wrote: 1 Timothy 3:16 " All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."
Paul did not write 2 Timothy. I don't disagree that the writers were inspired. We assume religious writings are inspired by God or the religious situation of the time, but inspiration is not dictation. Even inspired works can be incorrect.
Since the author is unknown, how do you know he is correct?
quote:
edgar goodspeed may not believe that Peter wrote Peter, but the writer says he is 'Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ.(2Pet1:1) and says that this is 'the second letter I am writing you.' (2pet3:1) The christians who received the letter had no reason to doubt who it came from.
Pseudographia was common practice in those days. People wrote under the name of someone more important so the work would carry weight. Please don't tell me you don't understand why anyone would do that. Of course they believed it was from Paul. If they didn't the writer didn't do a good job and defeated the purpose of trying to write like Paul. The point was for people to believe it was from Paul.
quote:
Peter was an apostle of Christ.
But not the author of the letter. The author is unknown.
quote:
according to the oldest tradition, by both Jewish and early Christian scholars, Moses was the writer. Its written in almost identical style to the Pentateuch more then any other writing. Also, Moses came from the area where Job lived...i know you dont believe Job was a real person, but there is nothing in the story that makes Job an allegorical character.
What is your point???? I didn't say allegory, I said parable. You use Moses as an authority for what you're saying, but he wasn't the author. So what is your point concerning the topic?
quote:
although i havnt mentioned it here yet, but prophecies are another sure proof of Gods inspiration. Im not sure if you've studied the prophecies but i have and they provide outstanding evidence of inspiration.
The prophet should not be writing from inspiration. They should be writing from direct guidance from God. As I keep saying, inspiration is not dictation. They also don't cover all the writers in the Bible. I agree that prophets supposedly spoke for God.
quote:
I said original 'languages'
the Hebrew scriptures were translated by Jewish scholars into Greek for the Greek speaking Jews. That translation became known as the Septuagint and it is an original language because the Jews were Greek speaking. They translated the scriptures themselves to match a new mother tongue.
Jesus and his disciples were greek and hebrew speaking. This is why the Septuagint is a valuable translation because they could read and write in both languages so the Septuagint would have been accurately translated.
When I think of original language, I think of Hebrew for the OT.
English is my "original language", but the Bibles I use are still translations.
quote:
the fact is, we have a bible that has been accurately preserved and we can compare any teaching that someone may want to introduce.
What does that have to do with the topic? We're talking about authority and inspiration.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Peg, posted 08-05-2009 7:26 AM Peg has not replied

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