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Author Topic:   If you were God, what kind of God would you be?
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 196 of 247 (522389)
09-03-2009 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Peg
09-03-2009 5:08 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
that seems very naive... especially the part about the nazi's seeing they were sending children to the gas chambers!
The children sent to the gas chambers were not enemy combatents, so the geneva convention does not apply to them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Peg, posted 09-03-2009 5:08 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Peg, posted 09-03-2009 7:18 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 197 of 247 (522391)
09-03-2009 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by hooah212002
09-03-2009 7:14 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
hooah212002 writes:
The children sent to the gas chambers were not enemy combatents, so the geneva convention does not apply to them.
phewww thats reassuring!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by hooah212002, posted 09-03-2009 7:14 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by hooah212002, posted 09-03-2009 7:25 AM Peg has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 198 of 247 (522393)
09-03-2009 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Peg
09-03-2009 7:18 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
If you are going to reference something and try and use it in your argument, please understand what it is......
I don't recall Auschwitz being full of American/British/Soviet soldiers, do you? I know it's a rather bleak way to look at it, but that's what it is. Were the Jews fighting back? were the Jews at war with Hitler? Was WWII faught by the Jews vs. the Nazis?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Peg, posted 09-03-2009 7:18 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Peg, posted 09-03-2009 7:41 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 199 of 247 (522396)
09-03-2009 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by hooah212002
09-03-2009 7:25 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
the US dropped a bomb on Hiroshima that was aimed at civilians
What was their purpose?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by hooah212002, posted 09-03-2009 7:25 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by hooah212002, posted 09-03-2009 8:00 AM Peg has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 200 of 247 (522398)
09-03-2009 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by Peg
09-03-2009 7:10 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
Peg writes:
I replied in msg 173
"of course not
besides, he'd never ask "
I know. That still leaves the question why you wouldn't obey your god and how we determine if we should obey him or not. Further you seem to be implying you know the mind of your god. That's a mighty high position you put yourself in.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Peg, posted 09-03-2009 7:10 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Peg, posted 09-04-2009 8:31 AM Huntard has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 201 of 247 (522400)
09-03-2009 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Peg
09-03-2009 7:41 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
I was replying to what you said in Message 191, where you called Drosophilla naive for saying that the nazis followed Geneva convention. i then pointed out how your reasoning was flawed when you said they put children in gas chambers.
Where did I say anything about Hiroshima? I do recall asking you a string of questions to back up your assertations of how jewish children being thrown in gas chambers violated Geneva Conventions.
This is all off topic anyways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Peg, posted 09-03-2009 7:41 AM Peg has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 202 of 247 (522414)
09-03-2009 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Peg
09-03-2009 7:03 AM


Re: God's Morality
This is all very well. But it doesn't answer my question.
If I am a soldier faced with a complex moral dilemma about actions that will inevitably result in killing children for what I am told is a greater good what do I do? How do I know what god would want me to do in this situation?
Where is the objective moral standard that you tell me exists and how do I access it in order to find the answers to such questions?
Or do I just have to rely on my fallible human judgement on such matters?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Peg, posted 09-03-2009 7:03 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Peg, posted 09-04-2009 8:52 AM Straggler has replied

  
Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


Message 203 of 247 (522568)
09-04-2009 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Peg
09-03-2009 5:08 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
Peg quote:
that seems very naive... especially the part about the nazi's seeing they were sending children to the gas chambers!
Unbelievable! The only one guilty of mindblowing naiviety is you Peg. The Nazis did follow Geneva convention rules for their considered prisoners of war (American, English etc soldiers). British POW's in even the toughest prisons reported being generally well treated, though the Japanese certainly had a different slant on prisoners).
When you refer to the gas chambers you are referring to the 'Final Solution' concerning Jews and this was ironically not a war situation but a philosophical remit from Hitler himself....a statement from the top to be obeyed not as part of a war but as an idealogical principle passed down to the masses....sound familiar? Hitler was viewed by most of the German people as THE Fuhrer, almost a God (and he DID say he was doing this all in the name of the Almighty God just in case you try telling me that he was an atheist - which he most certinly was not). Did you know the SS wore belt buckles with "God is with us" inscribed in the metal? You might say that doesn't mean God personally approved but that isn't the point - the point is that the Germans who carried out the gas chamber attrocitities thought they were doing it with God's approval - with Hitler as the chosen one to carry His word (rather like Moses 2000 years ago eh!). So the fact religion exists meant it could be used to legitimately allow those attrocities that would have been very difficult to justify otherwise.
There are evil humans in this world, and there are good people in this world Peg....but to make a good person do evil things takes religion. To set up then run the huge gas chamber operation required the duplicity and efforts of thousands. How do you think thousands of Germans co-operated in that venture Peg? Are you saying that basically Germany was full of pyschopaths ....or, far more likely, did basically decent people get brainwashed in a religous fervour to follow Hitler with the assumption of God's approval tacitly given?
It makes no difference if you try to protest that God had nothing to do with it - for two reasons:
1) Even if God personally didn't know what was going on (ludicrous suggestion for an all omnipotent being) then the man-made construct of God is still evil in that it allows humans to abandon all morality - just as you regularly do when you say "I don't know why God kills babies and children - but He must have a reason".
2) Why wouldn't God personally intervene and stop the gas chamber horrors if He is real? If you come back with "The Jews must deserve this according to God" then your pyschopathic mind is fully revealed....for yes babies and children were in those gas chambers.
Summary:
1. When a religous ideal is not involved humans as a group tend to behave largely ethically - English/American prisoners treated fairly in WW2.
2. Add a zealous mandate from an awe-inspiring leader into the mix and say it comes from God then you can do anything you want and throw any morality out of the window under the guise "God has told us and he must be right".
If God came to you tonight Peg, and you were convinced it was Him - and he told you to kill the first toddler you see tomorrow - would you do it? Don't respond by saying "but he wouldn't say that" - because he sanctioned just that action countless times in the bible so he's got a good track record he could do exactly that - so would you kill a toddler on the whim of God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Peg, posted 09-03-2009 5:08 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Peg, posted 09-04-2009 9:03 AM Drosophilla has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 204 of 247 (522598)
09-04-2009 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Huntard
09-03-2009 7:56 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
Huntard writes:
That still leaves the question why you wouldn't obey your god and how we determine if we should obey him or not. Further you seem to be implying you know the mind of your god. That's a mighty high position you put yourself in.
the truth is, you asked a loaded question
no matter how i answered, it would have been wrong.
And i know that God would never ask such a thing because of what the bible reveals about him...that same information is available to everyone

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Huntard, posted 09-03-2009 7:56 AM Huntard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by bluescat48, posted 09-04-2009 8:38 AM Peg has replied
 Message 206 by Coragyps, posted 09-04-2009 8:40 AM Peg has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 205 of 247 (522600)
09-04-2009 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Peg
09-04-2009 8:31 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
And i know that God would never ask such a thing because of what the bible reveals about him...that same information is available to everyone
But that is just what he commanded his "Chosen People" to do to those people in Canaan so why would he not ask you yo do the same.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Peg, posted 09-04-2009 8:31 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Peg, posted 09-04-2009 9:07 AM bluescat48 has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 206 of 247 (522602)
09-04-2009 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Peg
09-04-2009 8:31 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
And i know that God would never ask such a thing because of what the bible reveals about him...
What about "Then God said, 'Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about.'" He's dang sure done it before, Peg! Why not you, too?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Peg, posted 09-04-2009 8:31 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 207 of 247 (522607)
09-04-2009 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Straggler
09-03-2009 9:32 AM


Re: God's Morality
Straggler writes:
If I am a soldier faced with a complex moral dilemma about actions that will inevitably result in killing children for what I am told is a greater good what do I do? How do I know what god would want me to do in this situation?
Ask yourself first if God supports the wars of man. There were many wars that he did support, even fought, during Isreals history, but there has been not been 1 war he has supported since the time of Jesus christ.
So if you were to ask what God would want you to do, i believe this would be your answer:
quote:
Matt 265:52 Then Jesus said to him: Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword
Matt 5:44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU
Isaiah 2:4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.
In some way, you do have to use your judgement. If God is telling people to put their swords away, love their enemies and stop with all the warring, how do you think it applies to soldiers?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Straggler, posted 09-03-2009 9:32 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Coragyps, posted 09-04-2009 9:53 AM Peg has replied
 Message 214 by Straggler, posted 09-04-2009 9:57 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 208 of 247 (522608)
09-04-2009 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Drosophilla
09-04-2009 3:31 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
Drosophilla writes:
1. When a religous ideal is not involved humans as a group tend to behave largely ethically - English/American prisoners treated fairly in WW2.
Pol Pot! Stalin!
serioulsy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Drosophilla, posted 09-04-2009 3:31 AM Drosophilla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Drosophilla, posted 09-04-2009 9:21 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 209 of 247 (522610)
09-04-2009 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by bluescat48
09-04-2009 8:38 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
bluescat48 writes:
But that is just what he commanded his "Chosen People" to do to those people in Canaan so why would he not ask you yo do the same.
Those people chose to war with God...some of them surrendered and they became a part of isreal, so how can that be unjust on Gods part.
If the US go to war with an enemy nation, its because diplomacy has failed and the end result is war. Its no different with God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by bluescat48, posted 09-04-2009 8:38 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by bluescat48, posted 09-04-2009 1:53 PM Peg has replied

  
Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


Message 210 of 247 (522615)
09-04-2009 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Peg
09-04-2009 9:03 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
Pol Pot! Stalin!
ROTFLMAO!
You're a real classic Peg I have to hand you that...tell me if you recognise the tyrannical abuse of power in human individuals such as Pol Pot, Stalin and Hitler...how does it completely escape you when your God does exactly the same?
Furthrmore - where in our humansist moral codes do we say humans should follow the edicts of Pol Pot, Stalin etc? Whereas you would have us happily marching to the tune of your genocidal, infanticidal ethnic cleansing monster if you had your way.
I'm now wondering whether you are schizophrenic, sociopathic or just indoctrinated to the hilt...sometimes it's impossible to tell the difference... which takes me back to the long-forgotten OP:
I'd be a God who allowed my subjects full rational use of their mind...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Peg, posted 09-04-2009 9:03 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Peg, posted 09-04-2009 9:30 AM Drosophilla has replied

  
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