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Author Topic:   That boat don't float
Jzyehoshua
Inactive Member


Message 406 of 453 (664046)
05-28-2012 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by pandion
08-19-2009 2:14 PM


Not a box
The boat wasn't supposed to have been a box, but shaped more like a basket given the word usage, as noted by AIG:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/...ab/really-a-flood-and-ark

They also provided a model for it that would fix the steerage issues. You seem to be assuming it was just a big box when some design details are just not mentioned, and we can only hypothesize about.


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Jzyehoshua
Inactive Member


Message 407 of 453 (664047)
05-28-2012 8:13 PM


Waste and Caring for animals
Both waste disposal and care for animals are addressed in this article I found:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/...n2/caring-for-the-animals

quote:
How Were the Animals Cared For?
We must distinguish between the long-term care required for animals kept in zoos and the temporary, emergency care required on the Ark. The animals’ comfort and healthy appearance were not essential for emergency survival during one stressful year, where survival was the primary goal.

Studies of nonmechanized animal care indicate that eight people could have fed and watered 16,000 creatures. The key is to avoid unnecessary walking around. As the old adage says, “Don’t work harder, work smarter.”

Therefore, Noah probably stored the food and water near each animal. Even better, drinking water could have been piped into troughs, just as the Chinese have used bamboo pipes for this purpose for thousands of years. The use of some sort of self-feeders, as is commonly done for birds, would have been relatively easy and probably essential. Animals that required special care or diets were uncommon and should not have needed an inordinate amount of time from the handlers. Even animals with the most specialized diets in nature could have been switched to readily sustainable substitute diets. Of course, this assumes that animals with specialized diets today were likewise specialized at the time of the Flood.


quote:
What Did Noah and His Family Do with the Animal Waste?
As much as 12 U.S. tons (11 m. tons) of animal waste may have been produced daily. The key to keeping the enclosures clean was to avoid the need for Noah and his family to do the work. The right systems could also prevent the need to change animal bedding. Noah could have accomplished this in several ways. One possibility would be to allow the waste to accumulate below the animals, much as we see in modern pet shops. In this regard, there could have been slatted floors, and animals could have trampled their waste into the pits below. Small animals, such as birds, could have multiple levels in their enclosures, and waste could have simply accumulated at the bottom of each.

The danger of toxic or explosive manure gases, such as methane, would be alleviated by the constant movement of the Ark, which would have allowed manure gases to be constantly released. Secondly, methane, which is half the density of air, would quickly find its way out of a small opening such as a window. There is no reason to believe that the levels of these gases within the Ark would have approached hazardous levels.

Alternatively, sloped floors would have allowed the waste to flow into large central gutters. Noah’s family could have then dumped this overboard without an excessive expenditure of manpower.

The problem of manure odor may, at first thought, seem insurmountable. But we must remember that, throughout most of human history, humans lived together with their farm animals. Barns, separate from human living quarters, are a relatively recent development.

While the voyage of the Ark may not have been comfortable or easy, it was certainly doable, even under such unprecedented circumstances.


Articles were found here:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/topic/noahs-ark

Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15374
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 408 of 453 (664049)
05-28-2012 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by Portillo
01-12-2012 1:34 AM


Well jar seems to be right even if he did use a naughty word.

Heyerdahl made one voyage in the reed boat Ra and very nearly made it. Since he got so close, he saw no problem with his basic design, but had Ra II built along the same lines and succeeded.

Here is a picture of Ra II

It's not covered in tar.

You can see video of Ra II here. Where's the tar? There is no tar. Where did you get the story about the tar?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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Stargaze
Junior Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 6
Joined: 05-24-2012


(1)
Message 409 of 453 (664050)
05-28-2012 8:19 PM


I don't understand how "basket" is a shape. I can picture all kinds of baskets, which one was the ark modeled after?
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Jzyehoshua
Inactive Member


Message 410 of 453 (664052)
05-28-2012 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by Stargaze
05-28-2012 8:19 PM


I don't understand how "basket" is a shape. I can picture all kinds of baskets, which one was the ark modeled after?

Tough to tell, really. As noted in the following AIG article, all we can really do is go off the Hebrew word used, tebah, that's translated Ark in English, to try and figure out what it was like.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/...ab/really-a-flood-and-ark

quote:
How Could the Ark Survive the Flood?

The description of the Ark is very brief—Genesis 6:14–16. Those three verses contain critical information including overall dimensions, but Noah was almost certainly given more detail than this. Other divinely specified constructions in the Bible are meticulously detailed, like the descriptions of Moses’ Tabernacle or the temple in Ezekiel’s vision.

The Bible does not say the Ark was a rectangular box. In fact, Scripture gives no clue about the shape of Noah’s Ark other than the proportions—length, width, and depth. Ships have long been described like this without ever implying a block-shaped hull.
Moses used the obscure term tebah, a word that is only used again for the basket that carried baby Moses (Exodus 2:3). One was a huge wooden ship and the other a tiny wicker basket. Both float, both rescue life, and both are covered. But the similarity ends there. We can be quite sure that the baby basket did not have the same proportions as the Ark, and Egyptian baskets of the time were typically rounded. Perhaps tebah means “lifeboat.”

For many years biblical creationists have simply depicted the Ark as a rectangular box. This shape helped illustrate its size while avoiding the distractions of hull curvature. It also made it easy to compare volume. By using a short cubit and the maximum number of animal “kinds,” creationists, as we’ve seen, have demonstrated how easily the Ark could fit the payload.7 At the time, space was the main issue; other factors were secondary.

However, the next phase of research investigated sea-keeping (behavior and comfort at sea), hull strength, and stability. This began with a Korean study performed at the world-class ship research center (KRISO) in 1992.8 The team of nine KRISO researchers was led by Dr. Hong, who is now director-general of the research center.

The study confirmed that the Ark could handle waves as high as 98 feet (30 m), and that the proportions of the biblical Ark are near optimal—an interesting admission from Dr. Hong, who believes evolutionary ideas, openly claiming “life came from the sea.”9 The study combined analysis, model wave testing, and ship standards, yet the concept was simple: compare the biblical Ark with 12 other vessels of the same volume but modified in length, width, or depth. Three qualities were measured—stability, hull strength, and comfort.


Here are all the places where the word is used in the Bible, including the Interlinear (Hebrew) words. Basically about the best that can be done to figure it out is look at the different places it's used and see if there's any clues as to what it might mean.

Edited by Jzyehoshua, : removing list of words put in next post, fixed glitch due to arrow tags


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Jzyehoshua
Inactive Member


Message 411 of 453 (664054)
05-28-2012 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by Jzyehoshua
05-28-2012 8:33 PM


Hmm, it's not showing all the Hebrew words for some reason, some kind of problem, probably because of the tags. I will post it again here and edit it in.

Ge 6:14 Make (`asah) thee an ark (tebah) of gopher (gopher) wood (`ets); rooms (qen) shalt thou make (`asah) in ('eth) the ark (tebah), and shalt pitch (kaphar) it within (bayith) and without (chuwts) with pitch (kopher).
Ge 6:15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make (`asah) it of: The length ('orek) of the ark (tebah) shall be three (shalowsh) hundred (me'ah) cubits ('ammah), the breadth (rochab) of it fifty (chamishshiym) cubits ('ammah), and the height (qowmah) of it thirty (shelowshiym) cubits ('ammah).
Ge 6:16 A window (tsohar) shalt thou make (`asah) to the ark (tebah), and in a cubit ('ammah) shalt thou finish (kalah) it above (ma`al); and the door (pethach) of the ark (tebah) shalt thou set (suwm) in the side thereof (tsad); with lower (tachtiy), second (sheniy), and third (sheliyshiy) stories shalt thou make (`asah) it.
Ge 6:18 But with thee will I establish (quwm) my covenant (beriyth); and thou shalt come (bow') into ('el) the ark (tebah), thou ('attah), and thy sons (ben), and thy wife ('ishshah), and thy sons (ben)' wives ('ishshah) with thee.
Ge 6:19 And of every living thing (chay) of all flesh (basar), two (shenayim) of every sort shalt thou bring (bow') into the ark (tebah), to keep them alive (chayah) with thee; they shall be male (zakar) and female (neqebah).
Ge 7:1 And the LORD (Yehovah) said ('amar) unto Noah (Noach), Come (bow') thou and all thy house (bayith) into the ark (tebah); for thee have I seen (ra'ah) righteous (tsaddiyq) before me (paniym) in this (zeh) generation (dowr).
Ge 7:7 And Noah (Noach) went in (bow'), and his sons (ben), and his wife ('ishshah), and his sons (ben)' wives ('ishshah) with him, into the ark (tebah), because of (paniym) the waters (mayim) of the flood (mabbuwl).
Ge 7:9 There went in (bow') two (shenayim) and two (shenayim) unto Noah (Noach) into the ark (tebah), the male (zakar) and the female (neqebah), as ('aher) God ('elohiym) had commanded (tsavah) Noah (Noach).
Ge 7:13 In the selfsame (`etsem) day (yowm) entered (bow') Noah (Noach), and Shem (Shem), and Ham (Cham), and Japheth (Yepheth), the sons (ben) of Noah (Noach), and Noah's (Noach) wife ('ishshah), and the three (shalowsh) wives ('ishshah) of his sons (ben) with them, into the ark (tebah);
Ge 7:15 And they went in (bow') unto Noah (Noach) into the ark (tebah), two (shenayim) and two (shenayim) of all flesh (basar), wherein ('aher) is the breath (ruwach) of life (chay).
Ge 7:17 And the flood (mabbuwl) was forty ('arba`iym) days (yowm) upon the earth ('erets); and the waters (mayim) increased (rabah), and bare up (nasa') the ark (tebah), and it was lift up (ruwm) above the earth ('erets).
Ge 7:18 And the waters (mayim) prevailed (gabar), and were increased (rabah) greatly (me`od) upon the earth ('erets); and the ark (tebah) went (yalak) upon the face (paniym) of the waters (mayim).
Ge 7:23 And every living substance (yequwm) was destroyed (machah) which was upon the face (paniym) of the ground ('adamah), both man ('adam), and cattle (behemah), and the creeping things (remes), and the fowl (`owph) of the heaven (shamayim); and they were destroyed (machah) from the earth ('erets): and Noah (Noach) only ('ak) remained (sha'ar) alive, and they that ('aher) were with him in the ark (tebah).
Ge 8:1 And God ('elohiym) remembered (zakar) Noah (Noach), and every living thing (chay), and all the cattle (behemah) that was with him in the ark (tebah): and God ('elohiym) made (`abar) a wind (ruwach) to pass (`abar) over (`al) the earth ('erets), and the waters (mayim) asswaged (shakak);
Ge 8:4 And the ark (tebah) rested (nuwach) in the seventh (shebiy`iy) month (chodesh), on the seventeenth (`asar) (sheba`) day (yowm) of the month (chodesh), upon the mountains (har) of Ararat ('Ararat).
Ge 8:6 And it came to pass at the end (qets) of forty ('arba`iym) days (yowm), that Noah (Noach) opened (pathach) the window (challown) of the ark (tebah) which he had made (`asah):
Ge 8:9 But the dove (yownah) found (matsa') no rest (manowach) for the sole (kaph) of her foot (regel), and she returned (shuwb) unto him into the ark (tebah), for the waters (mayim) were on the face (paniym) of the whole earth ('erets): then he put forth (shalach) his hand (yad), and took her (laqach), and pulled her in (bow') unto him into the ark (tebah).
Ge 8:10 And he stayed (chuwl) yet other ('acher) seven (sheba`) days (yowm); and again (yacaph) he sent forth (shalach) the dove (yownah) out of the ark (tebah);
Ge 8:13 And it came to pass in the six (shesh) hundredth (me'ah) and first year (shaneh (in pl. only),), in the first (ri'shown) month, the first ('echad) day of the month (chodesh), the waters (mayim) were dried up (charab) from off the earth ('erets): and Noah (Noach) removed (cuwr) the covering (mikceh) of the ark (tebah), and looked (ra'ah), and, behold, the face (paniym) of the ground ('adamah) was dry (charab).
Ge 8:16 Go forth (yatsa') of the ark (tebah), thou, and thy wife ('ishshah), and thy sons (ben), and thy sons (ben)' wives ('ishshah) with thee.
Ge 8:19 Every beast (chay), every creeping thing (remes), and every fowl (`owph), and whatsoever (kol) creepeth (ramas) upon the earth ('erets), after their kinds (mishpachah), went forth (yatsa') out of the ark (tebah).
Ge 9:10 And with every living (chay) creature (nephesh) that is with you, of the fowl (`owph), of the cattle (behemah), and of every beast (chay) of the earth ('erets) with you; from all that go out (yatsa') of the ark (tebah), to every beast (chay) of the earth ('erets).
Ge 9:18 And the sons (ben) of Noah (Noach), that went forth (yatsa') of the ark (tebah), were Shem (Shem), and Ham (Cham), and Japheth (Yepheth): and Ham (Cham) (huw') is the father ('ab) of Canaan (Kena`an).
Ex 2:3 And when she could (yakol) not longer (`owd) hide (tsaphan) him, she took (laqach) for him an ark (tebah) of bulrushes (gome'), and daubed (chamar) it with slime (chemar) and with pitch (zepheth), and put (suwm) the child (yeled) therein; and she laid (suwm) it in the flags (cuwph) by the river's (ye`or) brink (saphah).
Ex 2:5 And the daughter (bath) of Pharaoh (Par`oh) came down (yarad) to wash (rachats) herself at the river (ye`or); and her maidens (na`arah) walked (halak) along by the river's (ye`or) side (yad); and when she saw (ra'ah) the ark (tebah) among (tavek) the flags (cuwph), she sent (shalach) her maid ('amah) to fetch (laqach) it.

Alright, that should work. I'll delete the part of the last post that messed up and didn't post all the Hebrew words.

Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.

Edited by Jzyehoshua, : bolding word ark for easier readability


This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-28-2012 8:33 PM Jzyehoshua has responded

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Jzyehoshua
Inactive Member


Message 412 of 453 (664056)
05-28-2012 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by Jzyehoshua
05-28-2012 8:36 PM


Anyway, just from taking a quick look at the list, some observations:

* In Exodus 2:3 where the word is used, it says the Ark Moses was in was made of bulrushes. So I don't think you could make reeds or bulrushes into a box shape easily. Probably was something of a basket or even spherical, but you'd think it had to be rounded somehow.
* It makes it really tough to tell what it was like because outside of the Flood narrative in Genesis chapters 6-9 it's only used twice in the Bible. It had to have been a shape capable of being made readily by an Israelite wife scared her child would be killed, but perhaps unusual enough that it wasn't mentioned much in the Bible.


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jar
Member
Posts: 28156
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 413 of 453 (664058)
05-28-2012 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 412 by Jzyehoshua
05-28-2012 8:47 PM


If it is impossible to say what the design was then it's impossible to say it would even float; but since the Biblical Flood never happened it doesn't much matter anyway.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Jzyehoshua
Inactive Member


Message 414 of 453 (664059)
05-28-2012 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by jar
05-28-2012 8:51 PM


Well, theories could be proposed for how it COULD float, which is basically all Answers in Genesis did, theorize on ways a design could work given the minimal information we know. But really, there's not really any way to tell for sure what the Ark's shape was exactly, at least, not that I know of anyway.
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Jzyehoshua
Inactive Member


Message 415 of 453 (664062)
05-28-2012 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by Jzyehoshua
05-28-2012 8:54 PM


We basically know some basic dimensions (300 x 50 x 30 cubits) and that it was 3 stories with multiple rooms. It had a window and a door in the side. (Genesis 6:14-16) And as mentioned it was likely somewhat spherical given that Arks can be made out of bulrushes. Beyond that, just basically guesswork - your guess is as good as mine.

Also, Cubits were based on forearm measurements. The bigger the guy, the bigger the Cubit. So if pre-Flood humans were bigger the Ark could be a bit bigger than is usually calculated, if smaller, than it could be a smaller Ark.

Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.


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Coyote
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Posts: 5529
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 416 of 453 (664067)
05-28-2012 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Jzyehoshua
05-28-2012 8:13 PM


Re: Waste and Caring for animals
Animal care, eh?

If you think that AIG method is practical, you're nuts.

AIG is imagining methods of animal care that aren't done today, even with the technology we have.

Think of Noah's problems. For example: No pumps to feed water to the piping AIG imagines they had for watering all those guys. No fresh water! No place to store a year's worth of food. Some animals require a good deal of poop-scooping--often more than once a day if they are confined. ("Noah! I've had it! I'm not scooping up after those elephants one more day!")

You believe AIG's nonsense about 16,000 animals, eh? I suspect you've never cared for large animals, or if you have, you have no grasp of mathematics. (Want to learn something? Want to see how much waste four horses can generate a day? And how long it takes to scoop it? Let me know--we can certainly help you out.)

If Noah and his kin worked 24/7, that would be caring for 1.39 animals per minute for a full year.

If they slept and otherwise wasted their time for 8 hours a day, they would have to care for over 2.08 animals per minute for a full year.

No, just for these reasons alone it wasn't doable.

Face it, the Noah myth is a myth. It didn't really happen. Get over it.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
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Jzyehoshua
Inactive Member


Message 417 of 453 (664072)
05-28-2012 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 416 by Coyote
05-28-2012 9:13 PM


Re: Waste and Caring for animals
Still, some of the stuff the ancient world produced like the Easter Island statues and Stonehenge we still don't have an explanation for either. We don't really know what exactly their capabilities or ingenuity levels were like. Maybe the lower deck really was a "poop deck" - literally. But I don't know that I'd write this off as an impossibility.

16,000 animals may not have been needed given the rapid microevolutionary rates that we see today, and would allow them to rapidly branch out into the varieties we see today.

http://creationwiki.org/...ion#Rapid_Microevolutionary_rates

Edited by Jzyehoshua, : fixed wrong link


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15374
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 418 of 453 (664074)
05-28-2012 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 407 by Jzyehoshua
05-28-2012 8:13 PM


Re: Waste and Caring for animals
I agree with Coyote, that's just rubbish. Hasn't the guy who wrote that ever talked to anyone who's tried to keep a diverse collection of animals alive? And below decks on a ship as well?

I'd recommend a course of Gerald Durrell's books, he's both run a zoo and been responsible for the short-term (by which AiG mean over a year!) transport of animals on boats. They seem hopelessly naive about the whole thing. I mean, take this:

Animals that required special care or diets were uncommon and should not have needed an inordinate amount of time from the handlers. Even animals with the most specialized diets in nature could have been switched to readily sustainable substitute diets.

NO.


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jar
Member
Posts: 28156
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(3)
Message 419 of 453 (664076)
05-28-2012 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 417 by Jzyehoshua
05-28-2012 9:34 PM


Re: Waste and Caring for animals
YOU may not have an explanation for either Stonehenge or the Easter Island moai but that does not mean the rest of us don't understand how they were built.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 1464 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 420 of 453 (664077)
05-28-2012 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 417 by Jzyehoshua
05-28-2012 9:34 PM


Re: Waste and Caring for animals
What about all the plants the flood destroyed. Where did the olive branch come from? Even if Noah carried seed and seedlings it would still be a problem feeding all the animals until the first harvest. Of course Ham and AiG can always play the supernatural card.

quote:
Just as God brought the animals to Noah by some form of supernatural means, He surely also prepared them for this amazing event. Creation scientists suggest that God gave the animals the ability to hibernate, as we see in many species today. Most animals react to natural disasters in ways that were designed to help them survive. It’s very possible many animals did hibernate, perhaps even supernaturally intensified by God.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/...ab/really-a-flood-and-ark


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
― Edward R. Murrow

"Yeah, I know. I'm guilty. I understand that. I knew it was a crime, and I did it anyways. Shit, why argue? I'm a fucking criminal, look at me." - Raoul Duke


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