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Author Topic:   ICANT'S position in the creation debate
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4888 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 316 of 687 (522527)
09-03-2009 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Minnemooseus
09-03-2009 8:33 PM


Re: Your creationist position relative to the mainstream creationist position?
The age of the first human (Homo sapiens)? — Mainstream science has it that the Homo sapiens species goes back many 1000’s of years (I don’t offhand have a good number). Anyway, this is far outside the mainstream YAC/YEC timeframe of 5 to 10 thousand years. Does your position conflict with that many 1000’s of years timeframe or are you willing to accept that?
I think it's about 60-90,000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-03-2009 8:33 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 317 of 687 (522529)
09-03-2009 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Modulous
09-03-2009 6:24 PM


Re: time
Hi Mod,
Modulous writes:
Relativity works. By assuming that time is a property of the universe (or more precisely 'spacetime'), we have GPS.
I thought we had GPS because of a satellite system of 27 satellites with 24 working all the time. That has some equipment on it that keeps very accurate time and sends data which includes its location and the time continuously. These satellites are kept up to date by fixed land stations.
Then we have receivers that can receive the signal from 3 or 4 of those satellites. Calculate its position in relation to those satellites and know within a meter of where it is located on planet earth.
There are receivers that are much more accurate by using a land based station also.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Modulous, posted 09-03-2009 6:24 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 09-03-2009 9:22 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 344 by Modulous, posted 09-04-2009 3:14 PM ICANT has replied

  
Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 4888 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 318 of 687 (522530)
09-03-2009 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by ICANT
09-03-2009 9:13 PM


Re: time
I thought we had GPS because of a satellite system of 27 satellites with 24 working all the time. That has some equipment on it that keeps very accurate time and sends data which includes its location and the time continuously. These satellites are kept up to date by fixed land stations.
Then we have receivers that can receive the signal from 3 or 4 of those satellites. Calculate its position in relation to those satellites and know within a meter of where it is located on planet earth.
There are receivers that are much more accurate by using a land based station also.
Apparenty, ICANT, you do not understand what role relativity plays in GPS. Judging by Einstein's relativity, the faster an object goes, the slower time goes relative to that object. In GPS satellites, the radar depends on bei ng able to accurately measure the time and distance made by a vehicle or person extremely accurately. If it misjudged your time or speed, you could end up in, for example, Ground Zero in stead of the Empire State building- possibly more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by ICANT, posted 09-03-2009 9:13 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by ICANT, posted 09-03-2009 10:37 PM Teapots&unicorns has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 319 of 687 (522550)
09-03-2009 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Minnemooseus
09-03-2009 8:33 PM


Re: Your creationist position relative to the mainstream creationist position?
Hi Moose,
Minnemooseus writes:
This tells me you are agnostic about whether God is behind the ultimate universe origin. Regardless if such is true, such is my position.
I said I have no problem with it. That does not mean I accept it. But I would not limit God. If God spoke all the universe into existence or put it together out of existing material I would think it would be an awesome display of fireworks as everything raced around and got into its place.
Minnemooseus writes:
You apparently are outside of that mainstream.
I'm not normal that is for sure.
Minnemooseus writes:
The age of the universe? — Mainstream science has it that the universe as we know it is about 13.5 billion years old. My interpretation is that such DOES NOT conflict with your eternal universe position — The 13.5 billion year universe could be the current version of your larger eternal universe. Again, I personally have no conflict with such a position.
Genesis 1:1 says in the beginning. I have nothing else to go by. If the beginning was 13.7 BYA then that is when it all started. If it was 50 BYA then that is when it started I have no reference for the time and will have to be satisfied with what we can find out from the universe.
Minnemooseus writes:
The age of the Earth? — Mainstream science has it that the Earth as we know it is about 4.5 billion years old. Does your position conflict with that or are you willing to accept that?
The earth was created in the first light period and could have been 4.5 BYA more or less, I have no reference and will accept what the earth tells us.
Minnemooseus writes:
The age of the first life on Earth? — Mainstream science has it that life on Earth goes back 3+ billion years. Does your position conflict with that or are you willing to accept that?
I have no problem with that age for life.
The problem is that I believe that life was created by God and was mankind, then plants, then animals, fowls, and then woman.
All of these life forms are extinct and have formed all the many layers we find in the earth. The plates of the earth have moved around so much that I doubt very seriously if any of the larger life forms can be found or identified.
Minnemooseus writes:
The age of the first human (Homo sapiens)? — Mainstream science has it that the Homo sapiens species goes back many 1000's of years (I don't offhand have a good number). Anyway, this is far outside the mainstream YAC/YEC timeframe of 5 to 10 thousand years. Does your position conflict with that many 1000's of years timeframe or are you willing to accept that?
I believe modern man appeared on the 6th day of God's remodeling job of earth that took place in Genesis 1:2 - Genesis 2:3. Many have said that is 6000 years ago. I don't know because the Bible does not say when it was. Man has figured out a lot of things that he eventually found out he was wrong about. So whatever the bones tell us is OK by me.
Minnemooseus writes:
Do the modern great ages (gorillas, chimps) and modern humans have a common ancestor? — Mainstream science has it that such is the case. Mainstream creationist position is that humanity was God's special creation and that the great apes of man have no common ancestor. Do you agree or disagree with the mainstream science position?
I believe that God created everything that is alive on the face of the earth today and everything that is extinct. All of these things were created from the same elements by the same creator. Therefore all those things would have many things in common. I believe man is special in that God gave him a special body, with a spirit, and a mind to think, reason, and make decisions with knowing right from wrong.
Minnemooseus writes:
Mainstream creationist position is that the Noahtic flood was a literal event and that it was a sort of a modification or re-creation event. Mainstream science finds that such a flood never happened. What is your position concerning such a flood?
I am on record here that I believe the flood took place. I really have no time frame for it. I do not believe in any reconstruction during the flood. In fact I don't think there would be any trace of a global flood as YECS put forth.
I am also on record as saying the flood would have been impossible without divine intervention. Which I have no problem with as I believe "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" If God could do that He would have no problem with a little flood.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-03-2009 8:33 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 320 of 687 (522553)
09-03-2009 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Teapots&unicorns
09-03-2009 9:22 PM


Re: time
Hi Teapot,
Teapots&unicorns writes:
Apparenty, ICANT, you do not understand what role relativity plays in GPS. Judging by Einstein's relativity, the faster an object goes, the slower time goes relative to that object. In GPS satellites, the radar depends on bei ng able to accurately measure the time and distance made by a vehicle or person extremely accurately. If it misjudged your time or speed, you could end up in, for example, Ground Zero in stead of the Empire State building- possibly more.
You probably right about that.
As I only know that each GPS satellite transmits data that indicates its location and the current time. All GPS satellites synchronize operations so that these repeating signals are transmitted at the same instant. GPS receivers locate three satellites and use trilateration to determine where it is on planet earth.
Anything else is computed by data that is in the particular GPS unit.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Teapots&unicorns, posted 09-03-2009 9:22 PM Teapots&unicorns has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by Straggler, posted 09-04-2009 8:31 AM ICANT has replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3862 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 321 of 687 (522590)
09-04-2009 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by ICANT
09-03-2009 5:48 PM


Re: Information please
ICANT writes:
Catholic Scientist writes:
Sorry ICANT, but I don't want to play your game.
Just as I thought none exists.
Do you know how stupid that sounds?
If time were not a property of the universe, we couldn't measure it.
If time were not a property of the universe, there would be no "yesterday", no "now" and no "tomorrow", everything would happen at once, or not at all. The very fact you can get up in the morning and remember what you did last night is a proof that time is a property of the universe.
get off your high-horse and see sense, you're being very childish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by ICANT, posted 09-03-2009 5:48 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by ICANT, posted 09-04-2009 8:32 AM greyseal has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 322 of 687 (522597)
09-04-2009 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by ICANT
09-03-2009 10:37 PM


Re: time
Anything else is computed by data that is in the particular GPS unit.
Still insiting that time is a purely human construct huh? The fact that identical atomic clocks run slower in stronger gravitational fields regardless of units or measurement is probably beyond you. So how about radioactive half life as a display of time independent to humanity? Would radioactive isotopes stop decaying at fixed rates if humans were not around to measure them?
This is just another example of you letting your unevidenced philosophical bias in favour of your self defined concept of "infinte eternity" blind you from the actual physical evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by ICANT, posted 09-03-2009 10:37 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by ICANT, posted 09-04-2009 8:49 AM Straggler has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 323 of 687 (522599)
09-04-2009 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by greyseal
09-04-2009 7:39 AM


Re: Time
Hi greyseal,
greyseal writes:
If time were not a property of the universe, we couldn't measure it.
Evidence: The Physics definition of time.
Time - definition of time by The Free Dictionary
time
Noun
1. the past, present, and future regarded as a continuous whole Related adjective temporal
2. Physics a quantity measuring duration, measured with reference to the rotation of the earth or from the vibrations of certain atoms
The Physics definition says time is a quantity of measuring duration.
Duration is what happens.
Time is the tool used to determine the length of that duration.
Now as I said to CS.
If you got some scientific evidence present it.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by greyseal, posted 09-04-2009 7:39 AM greyseal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Straggler, posted 09-04-2009 8:43 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 357 by greyseal, posted 09-05-2009 3:16 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 324 of 687 (522603)
09-04-2009 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by ICANT
09-04-2009 8:32 AM


Re: Time
Time is the tool used to determine the length of that duration.
No clocks are the tools. The duration itself is the phenomenon we call time.
ICANT quotes dictionary writes:
2. Physics a quantity measuring duration, measured with reference to the rotation of the earth or from the vibrations of certain atoms
Would atoms stop vibrating at specific rates if there were no humans to measure these rates? Is that what you are saying?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by ICANT, posted 09-04-2009 8:32 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by ICANT, posted 09-04-2009 9:44 AM Straggler has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 325 of 687 (522606)
09-04-2009 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Straggler
09-04-2009 8:31 AM


Re: time
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Still insiting that time is a purely human construct huh? The fact that identical atomic clocks run slower in stronger gravitational fields regardless of units or measurement is probably beyond you.
What does that have to do with 24 atomic clocks that are synchronized and running together so they send the data at the same instant?
That is how the GPS can figures out where it is at. By the difference in the amount of time it takes for the signal to reach it.
If the GPS is mobile it can calculate where it is with every signal received. If it has a program with maps in it, it can place itself on that map. That is what I was referring to.
Anyway you just rant on.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Straggler, posted 09-04-2009 8:31 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Straggler, posted 09-04-2009 9:48 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 336 by NosyNed, posted 09-04-2009 11:51 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 326 of 687 (522623)
09-04-2009 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Straggler
09-04-2009 8:43 AM


Re: Time
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Would atoms stop vibrating at specific rates if there were no humans to measure these rates? Is that what you are saying?
Are you saying all atoms pulse at the same rates?
Cesium 133 is the element most commonly chosen for atomic clocks.
Certain atoms are chosen by a magnetic field because they have the proper energy state. These atoms are then adjusted to the right energy state by applying microwave energy at exactly the right frequency. This peak is used to correct the microwave field on exact frequency. Once this frequency is locked it is then divided by 9,192,631,770 to give the familiar one pulse per second required by the real world.
So since the atomic clock has to have specific atoms that have been alter in their energy state to be accurate, what does your assertion have to do with anything?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Straggler, posted 09-04-2009 8:43 AM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by cavediver, posted 09-04-2009 9:48 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 331 by Jazzns, posted 09-04-2009 11:02 AM ICANT has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3644 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 327 of 687 (522624)
09-04-2009 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by ICANT
09-04-2009 9:44 AM


Re: Time
So since the atomic clock has to have specific atoms that have been alter in their energy state to be accurate, what does your assertion have to do with anything?
The fact that you have to ask shows just how stupidly out of your depth you remain. You have the gall to demand evidence when the guys here have all suggested GPS. Just because YOU have no clue as to what this has to do with space-time, does not mean that it has nothing to do with space-time. Perhaps you think that when you close your eyes, we all disappear
Go look up GPS and relativity on Wikipedia, and when you come back, perhaps you won't look quite so stupid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by ICANT, posted 09-04-2009 9:44 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by ICANT, posted 09-04-2009 10:57 AM cavediver has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 328 of 687 (522626)
09-04-2009 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by ICANT
09-04-2009 8:49 AM


Re: time
Straggler writes:
Still insiting that time is a purely human construct huh? The fact that identical atomic clocks run slower in stronger gravitational fields regardless of units or measurement is probably beyond you.
What does that have to do with 24 atomic clocks that are synchronized and running together so they send the data at the same instant?
It has everything to do with it. Which is why Modulus raised GPS as an example. Read and learn ICANT:
Wiki writes:
The current GPS configuration consists of a network of 24 satellites in high orbits around the Earth. Each satellite in the GPS constellation orbits at an altitude of about 20,000 km from the ground, and has an orbital speed of about 14,000 km/hour (the orbital period is roughly 12 hours - contrary to popular belief, GPS satellites are not in geosynchronous or geostationary orbits). The satellite orbits are distributed so that at least 4 satellites are always visible from any point on the Earth at any given instant (with up to 12 visible at one time). Each satellite carries with it an atomic clock that "ticks" with an accuracy of 1 nanosecond (1 billionth of a second). A GPS receiver in an airplane determines its current position and heading by comparing the time signals it receives from a number of the GPS satellites (usually 6 to 12) and triangulating on the known positions of each satellite. The precision is phenomenal: even a simple hand-held GPS receiver can determine your absolute position on the surface of the Earth to within 5 to 10 meters in only a few seconds (with differential techiques that compare two nearby receivers, precisions of order centimeters or millimeters in relative position are often obtained in under an hour or so). A GPS receiver in a car can give accurate readings of position, speed, and heading in real-time!
To achieve this level of precision, the clock ticks from the GPS satellites must be known to an accuracy of 20-30 nanoseconds. However, because the satellites are constantly moving relative to observers on the Earth, effects predicted by the Special and General theories of Relativity must be taken into account to achieve the desired 20-30 nanosecond accuracy.
GPS and Relativity
Time as a physical property of the universe. As demonstrated by GPS.
Anyway you just rant on.
You have been ranting on the same subject for years. We finally establish that the position you rail against and the position you advocate (neither of which have anything to do with modern physics BTW) are equally unevidenced and you start getting hissy about it. Get over it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by ICANT, posted 09-04-2009 8:49 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by ICANT, posted 09-04-2009 11:13 AM Straggler has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 329 of 687 (522630)
09-04-2009 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Perdition
09-03-2009 5:02 PM


Re: Information please
Hi Perdition,
Perdition writes:
To spout your favorite equivocation back at you...is it made of particles or waves?
Both.
Perdition writes:
Length is a catch-all term indicating a definite size.
I will agree that length is a term that indicates the length of a physical object.
The numbers that designate length is a measurement set up by man.
But you said it was a property of the physical object.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Perdition, posted 09-03-2009 5:02 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by Perdition, posted 09-04-2009 12:40 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 330 of 687 (522646)
09-04-2009 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 327 by cavediver
09-04-2009 9:48 AM


Re: Time
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes:
Go look up GPS and relativity on Wikipedia, and when you come back, perhaps you won't look quite so stupid.
What does GPS and relativity have to do with how an atomic clock is made?
Are you saying an atomic clock is not made the way I described?
If it is not then please explain how an atomic clock is made.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by cavediver, posted 09-04-2009 9:48 AM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by hooah212002, posted 09-04-2009 11:32 AM ICANT has not replied

  
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