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Author Topic:   ICANT'S position in the creation debate
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1174 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 661 of 687 (527049)
09-30-2009 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 659 by Guiri
09-30-2009 3:23 AM


Re: Time changes
Thank you for your offer, but I tend towards Essens view

Yep, you're in esteemed company. Essen was a great experimentalist, but my five year old has a better understanding of theory than Essen ever did. My weakest GR students would have laughed him out of the room.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by Guiri, posted 09-30-2009 3:23 AM Guiri has not yet responded

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 1372 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 662 of 687 (527331)
09-30-2009 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 633 by ICANT
09-28-2009 12:53 PM


Re: remake the universe
First ICANT says this:


No God does not have a plan.

Then ICANT states this:


But God will create the universe you think He should have already created. It will be inhabited by people from this universe that chose to believe in Him and trust Him and follow Him.

In that universe there will be no pain, sickness, death, sorrow, and no one who has not accepted God's offer of a free full pardon.

Which sounds an AWFUL lot like a PLAN to me. ICANT follows up with this statement:


As I said God does not have a plan.

Incredible.

Cheers,
--Caldron68


This message is a reply to:
 Message 633 by ICANT, posted 09-28-2009 12:53 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3825
Joined: 09-26-2002
Member Rating: 1.8


(2)
Message 663 of 687 (527339)
09-30-2009 11:46 PM


Adminnemooseus - Concluding statement / Topic summary
I coerced ICANT into starting this topic because I was pretty clueless about what was his real creationist/anti-evolution position. In other words, what were his objections to the mainstream scientific perspecive of "the way it happened"?

ICANT's message 1 did little to clarify the situation. Thus my (Minnemooseus) message 4, subtitled "What's the time frames, and how about common ancestry", which asked:

What is you opinion on:

The age of the universe?

The age of the Earth?

The age of the first life on Earth?

The age of the first human (Homo sapiens)?

Do the modern great ages (gorillas, chimps) and modern humans have a common ancestor?

A few of my messages later, I got what seems to be the best I was going to get ICANT answer - Message 319. It, in its entirety, is as follows:

Hi Moose,

Minnemooseus writes:

This tells me you are agnostic about whether God is behind the ultimate universe origin. Regardless if such is true, such is my position.

I said I have no problem with it. That does not mean I accept it. But I would not limit God. If God spoke all the universe into existence or put it together out of existing material I would think it would be an awesome display of fireworks as everything raced around and got into its place.

Minnemooseus writes:

You apparently are outside of that mainstream.

I'm not normal that is for sure.

Minnemooseus writes:

The age of the universe? Mainstream science has it that the universe as we know it is about 13.5 billion years old. My interpretation is that such DOES NOT conflict with your eternal universe position The 13.5 billion year universe could be the current version of your larger eternal universe. Again, I personally have no conflict with such a position.

Genesis 1:1 says in the beginning. I have nothing else to go by. If the beginning was 13.7 BYA then that is when it all started. If it was 50 BYA then that is when it started I have no reference for the time and will have to be satisfied with what we can find out from the universe.

Minnemooseus writes:

The age of the Earth? Mainstream science has it that the Earth as we know it is about 4.5 billion years old. Does your position conflict with that or are you willing to accept that?

The earth was created in the first light period and could have been 4.5 BYA more or less, I have no reference and will accept what the earth tells us.

Minnemooseus writes:

The age of the first life on Earth? Mainstream science has it that life on Earth goes back 3+ billion years. Does your position conflict with that or are you willing to accept that?

I have no problem with that age for life.

The problem is that I believe that life was created by God and was mankind, then plants, then animals, fowls, and then woman.

All of these life forms are extinct and have formed all the many layers we find in the earth. The plates of the earth have moved around so much that I doubt very seriously if any of the larger life forms can be found or identified.

Minnemooseus writes:

The age of the first human (Homo sapiens)? Mainstream science has it that the Homo sapiens species goes back many 1000's of years (I don't offhand have a good number). Anyway, this is far outside the mainstream YAC/YEC timeframe of 5 to 10 thousand years. Does your position conflict with that many 1000's of years timeframe or are you willing to accept that?

I believe modern man appeared on the 6th day of God's remodeling job of earth that took place in Genesis 1:2 - Genesis 2:3. Many have said that is 6000 years ago. I don't know because the Bible does not say when it was. Man has figured out a lot of things that he eventually found out he was wrong about. So whatever the bones tell us is OK by me.

Minnemooseus writes:

Do the modern great ages (gorillas, chimps) and modern humans have a common ancestor? Mainstream science has it that such is the case. Mainstream creationist position is that humanity was God's special creation and that the great apes of man have no common ancestor. Do you agree or disagree with the mainstream science position?

I believe that God created everything that is alive on the face of the earth today and everything that is extinct. All of these things were created from the same elements by the same creator. Therefore all those things would have many things in common. I believe man is special in that God gave him a special body, with a spirit, and a mind to think, reason, and make decisions with knowing right from wrong.

Minnemooseus writes:

Mainstream creationist position is that the Noahtic flood was a literal event and that it was a sort of a modification or re-creation event. Mainstream science finds that such a flood never happened. What is your position concerning such a flood?

I am on record here that I believe the flood took place. I really have no time frame for it. I do not believe in any reconstruction during the flood. In fact I don't think there would be any trace of a global flood as YECS put forth.

I am also on record as saying the flood would have been impossible without divine intervention. Which I have no problem with as I believe "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" If God could do that He would have no problem with a little flood.

God Bless,

This is ICANT's position statement. To me, things still seem to be rather murky in regards to and relative to the mainstream scientific perspective. He seems to at the same time have no great objections to the science position, yet he seems to not be willing to accept that position. But perhaps my interpretation/evaluation is the muddled thing.

Or something like that.

For historical perspective, there was a similar attempt at getting a position statement out of Randman. A similarly muddled affair.

MEMBERS MAY WISH TO TRY DOING YOUR OWN CONCLUDING STATEMENT/TOPIC SUMMARY. IF SO, PLEASE KEEP IT NICE.

Adminnemooseus

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Typo.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Another typo.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Couple of grammar tweaks.


    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 664 of 687 (527494)
10-01-2009 2:12 PM


ICANT'S POSITION
Hi All,

Summation of ICANT'S position.

1. What is the age of the universe?

The universe has existed from it's beginning to exist in the beginnings. Genesis 1:1

I do not believe it has always existed in the form we see it today.

I will leave that up to what the universe reveals to us.

2. What is the age of the earth?

I believe the earth has existed from it's beginning to exist in the beginnings. Genesis 1:1

I do not believe it has always existed in the form we see it today.

I will leave that up to what the earth tells us.

3. What is the age of the first life on earth?

I believe man was the first creature formed and God breathed life into that form and it became a living soul in the beginnings of the heaven and the earth beginning to exist. Genesis 2:7.

4. What is the age of Modern humans?

I believe modern humans began to exist at least 6,000 years ago and it could have been longer as we only have man's figures to give us a time.

5. Do the modern great apes (gorillas, chimps) and modern humans have a common ancestor?

I believe the only thing they have in common is a creator that created them out of the same substance.

In this thread I asked for the scientific, verifiable, evidence of a common ancestor and none was presented.

6. Does time exist as a property of the universe?

No, time is a concept of man invented to measure existence/duration.

7. Is length, width, and height a property of the universe?

No, they are a concept of man invented to measure the size of objects as well as the space between objects.

8. How did the universe begin to exist?

ICANT'S answer In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth. Genesis 1:1.

The correct scientific answer is, "We don't know".
There are those who hold other views but have presented no evidence to support their view.

No thing has ever caused something to begin to exist.

The universe exists.

Therefore something or someone had to cause the universe to begin to exist.

9. How did life begin to exist on earth?

ICANT'S answer, God breathed life into a form he had formed from the dust of the ground and that form became a living soul. Genesis 2:7.

The correct scientific answer is, "We don't know".

Life exists on earth.

It is a scientific fact life produces life and is proved by humans 264 times per minute in the world.

It is a scientific fact in 150 years of trying to produce life with the best equipment by the best scientist non life has never produced life.

Therefore life on earth requires a life form to impart life for us to exist.

Anyone can believe anything they desire to believe as we all have free will to do so.

The facts are that:

There is no scientific verifiable evidence of how the universe began to exist.

There is no scientific verifiable evidence of how life on earth began to exist.

Therefore anything you believe concerning the universe and life in it is based upon your faith in what you have been told or have read.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
Replies to this message:
 Message 666 by caldron68, posted 10-01-2009 7:50 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 667 by lyx2no, posted 10-02-2009 8:46 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 669 by Aurora, posted 02-02-2011 9:29 AM ICANT has responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 481 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 665 of 687 (527568)
10-01-2009 6:18 PM


In closing...
ICANT asked for the scientific evidence against:

quote:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth

According to science, no point of creation from nothing to something took place, and, the Earth was not created at the BB.

That's the evidence ICANT asked for. Period.

quote:
And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

According to science man is not formed from dirt, man was not the first species on this planet.

That's the evidence ICANT asked for. Period.

His thread, this thread, is not about the origin of the universe, the origin of the first single cell organism, or any other OFF-TOPIC discussions that ICANT decide to posit to take away from the focus of this thread. This thread is about presenting the evidence from science.

He is being evasive when confronted with this fact. He tries to shift the focus of the discussion away from his OP. He has been dishonest in this thread.

He asked for the scientific evidence, that is all. He was shown it, that's the point. He tried to refute the evidence but unfortunately he is not a scientist so he is not qualified to do that.

ICANT was shown the evidence that he asked for, period.

- Oni


    
caldron68
Member (Idle past 1372 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 666 of 687 (527611)
10-01-2009 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 664 by ICANT
10-01-2009 2:12 PM


Re: ICANT'S POSITION
ICANT writes:


No thing has ever caused something to begin to exist.

The universe exists.

Therefore something or someone had to cause the universe to begin to exist.

No thing has ever caused something to begin to exist.

God exists.

Therefore something or someone had to cause God to begin to exist....

--Caldron68


This message is a reply to:
 Message 664 by ICANT, posted 10-01-2009 2:12 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2247 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 667 of 687 (527849)
10-02-2009 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 664 by ICANT
10-01-2009 2:12 PM


Evolution
ICANT once writes:

But space is physical.

But here ICANT writes:

7. Is length, width, and height a property of the universe?

No, they are a concept of man invented to measure the size of objects as well as the space between objects.

I can only assume you've recognized that time is extremely similar to distance and so to preserve your desire for time to be a construct you now make distance a construct as well. And though I think you went in the wrong direction, that your position has evolved lends promise that you do get the occasional glimpse of the contradictions in your position. Given you live to 140 this issue may be resolve to the good. I hope for both.

That aside, I don't see where you ever took this thread past my Message 3. Your God created the Universe; you're not going to register any rebuttal to God having made life in any way differing from Gen: 2.7; and If it can't be know 100% you get to make up what ever suits your fancy.

Nice Universe if you can get it.


It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.
Anon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 664 by ICANT, posted 10-01-2009 2:12 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
anthonylau 
Suspended Junior Member (Idle past 2618 days)
Posts: 20
Joined: 04-24-2010


Message 668 of 687 (557255)
04-24-2010 1:03 AM


spam deletion

Edited by AdminAsgara, : spam deletion


    
Aurora
Junior Member (Idle past 2227 days)
Posts: 13
From: India
Joined: 12-09-2010


Message 669 of 687 (603011)
02-02-2011 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 664 by ICANT
10-01-2009 2:12 PM


Re: ICANT'S POSITION
ICANT writes:


Therefore anything you believe concerning the universe and life in it is based upon your faith in what you have been told or have read.

God Bless,

It is true that from ancient times till today, anything we believe concerning the universe and life in it is based upon our faith in what we have been told or have read. But sometimes what is written or what we are told to belief are wrong. Earlier people believe the earth was flat, the sun revolves around the earth, etc. It is through science (not from the bible) that we learn more about the universe and life on earth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 664 by ICANT, posted 10-01-2009 2:12 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 670 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2011 11:38 AM Aurora has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 670 of 687 (603031)
02-02-2011 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 669 by Aurora
02-02-2011 9:29 AM


Re: ICANT'S POSITION
Hi Aurora,

I thought this thread was closed a long time ago.

But welcome to EvC.

Aurora writes:

It is true that from ancient times till today, anything we believe concerning the universe and life in it is based upon our faith in what we have been told or have read.

Glad to see you agree we learn from previous information.

Aurora writes:

But sometimes what is written or what we are told to belief are wrong.

Which is true of all types of information that has been passed on to us.

Aurora writes:

Earlier people believe the earth was flat, the sun revolves around the earth, etc.

If science and the Bible are correct all the land mass was in one place at one time as my avatar shows.

If you had lived at that time and could travel all the way around the coast line and could travel across it at any point, what would lead you to believe it was anything other than flat?

The sun does revolve around the earth. It just takes 200 million years to make the trip. Let me explain: The sun revolves around the earth every 365 1/4 days more or less. The sun also circles the galaxy every 200 million years which would make the sun revolve around the earth one time to accomplish its revolution around the galaxy.

Aurora writes:

It is through science (not from the bible) that we learn more about the universe and life on earth.

That is your opinion.

The Bible tells me what caused the universe and earth to begin to exist.

Science says "we don't know".

The Bible tells me what caused life to begin to exist.

Science says "we don't know".

Now if you have better scientific information to be considered I would love to be able to read about it.

Some scientist are working on those answers.

A lot of people and some scientist have concluded that some of the hypothesis of how the universe, earth, and life began to exist are a proven fact and are no longer looking for the answers.

Many have accepted by faith what they have been told.

That falls under the statement: "But sometimes what is written or what we are told to belief are wrong." (belief should be believe)

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 669 by Aurora, posted 02-02-2011 9:29 AM Aurora has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 671 by Panda, posted 02-02-2011 11:58 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 672 by bluescat48, posted 02-02-2011 12:25 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply
 Message 673 by Aurora, posted 02-02-2011 2:42 PM ICANT has responded

    
Panda
Member (Idle past 1243 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 671 of 687 (603034)
02-02-2011 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 670 by ICANT
02-02-2011 11:38 AM


Re: ICANT'S POSITION
ICANT writes:

The Bible tells me what caused the universe and earth to begin to exist.

Science says "we don't know".

The Bible tells me what caused life to begin to exist.

Science says "we don't know".


Correct.
Scientists discourage unsubstantiated claims.
Unfortunately, creationists don't.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 670 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2011 11:38 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 675 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2011 5:08 PM Panda has not yet responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 1720 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 672 of 687 (603037)
02-02-2011 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 670 by ICANT
02-02-2011 11:38 AM


Re: ICANT'S POSITION
The sun does revolve around the earth. It just takes 200 million years to make the trip. Let me explain: The sun revolves around the earth every 365 1/4 days more or less. The sun also circles the galaxy every 200 million years which would make the sun revolve around the earth one time to accomplish its revolution around the galaxy.

How does the sun revolve around the earth , when it drags the earth and the rest of solar system with it?


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 670 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2011 11:38 AM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

    
Aurora
Junior Member (Idle past 2227 days)
Posts: 13
From: India
Joined: 12-09-2010


Message 673 of 687 (603061)
02-02-2011 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 670 by ICANT
02-02-2011 11:38 AM


Re: ICANT'S POSITION
Hi ICANT,

I'm sorry for not knowing that this thread was closed a long time ago. I thought the moderator would announce the closure in the last post. Anyway thanks for the response.

ICANT writes:

The sun does revolve around the earth. It just takes 200 million years to make the trip. Let me explain: The sun revolves around the earth every 365 1/4 days more or less. The sun also circles the galaxy every 200 million years which would make the sun revolve around the earth one time to accomplish its revolution around the galaxy.


Excuse my knowledge in astronomy but if what you mention is the Solar System's galactic year, moving at 220 km/second and completing one revolution every 225250 million years, doesn't it include the Earth, then how can we say the sun revolves around the earth.

ICANT writes:

That is your opinion.

Yes, its my humble opinion that it is through science (not from the bible) that we learn more about the universe and life on earth.

ICANT writes:

Science says "we don't know".

It is also my humble opinion that when Science says "we don't know" it is more believable than what the Bible tells us 'what is'.

ICANT writes:

Many have accepted by faith what they have been told.

Yes, I admire their faith and wish they keep it to themselves and not try prove the accuracy of the Bible through pseudoscience.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 670 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2011 11:38 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 674 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2011 5:05 PM Aurora has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 674 of 687 (603081)
02-02-2011 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 673 by Aurora
02-02-2011 2:42 PM


Re: ICANT'S POSITION
Hi Aurora,

Aurora writes:

I'm sorry for not knowing that this thread was closed a long time ago. I thought the moderator would announce the closure in the last post. Anyway thanks for the response.

Its not closed or you could not have posted to it.

Aurora writes:

Excuse my knowledge in astronomy but if what you mention is the Solar System's galactic year, moving at 220 km/second and completing one revolution every 225250 million years, doesn't it include the Earth, then how can we say the sun revolves around the earth.

I was the one being careless.

Now as to how can the sun make one revolution around the earth in its journey.

Draw a circle on a piece of paper put the numbers of a clock on it. Then take two objects and place one of them on 12. Take the other and make a complete revolution around the one on 12. Then move the one on 12 to the number 1 and repeat the process and continue doing so for each number until you return to 12.

Now if you can you explain to me how you can accomplish this feat without the object that stayed on the numbers making a circle around the object that was orbiting around it I will retract my statement. "The sun does revolve around the earth."

Aurora writes:

Yes, I admire their faith and wish they keep it to themselves and not try prove the accuracy of the Bible through pseudoscience.

I was not refering to the faith of the belivers in the Bible.

I was refering in the faith of those who trust in a science that has no answer for how the universe and life began to exist. If you don't know how they began to exist you can not be certain how we got from there to here.

We may be brains in a jar that is being controled and fed all our memories and thoughts by and experimenter in a lab experiment that began last week.

But I do believe the Bible when properly understood has no problems with science except the how of the begining to exist of the universe and life.

The earth is old as is the universe. They were both created in the same light period that ended with the darkness of Genesis 1:2.

Life has been on the earth for a very long time.

If fact long enough for the material that forms our oil, natural gas, and coal to be produced and covered by miles of material that turned into rock.

The Bible is the only source that tells me the how, and why we exist.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 673 by Aurora, posted 02-02-2011 2:42 PM Aurora has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by Taq, posted 02-02-2011 5:26 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply
 Message 677 by Aurora, posted 02-03-2011 2:46 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 675 of 687 (603082)
02-02-2011 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 671 by Panda
02-02-2011 11:58 AM


Re: ICANT'S POSITION
Hi Panda,

Panda writes:

Correct.

I finally got over the shock of someone agreeing with me that I finally got something right.

Thanks.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by Panda, posted 02-02-2011 11:58 AM Panda has not yet responded

    
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