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Author Topic:   Codes, Evolution, and Intelligent Design
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 214 of 220 (328867)
07-05-2006 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Jon
06-26-2006 11:14 PM


Re: Levels of Abstraction
Invictus,
Musical notes are a different thing. With musical notes, there is information (the vibrations) which are being encoded into symbols on a page. Then they are later decoded on stage as the pianist reads them and decodes them into vibrations.
Ah, music!
Something else is going on with music. The arrangement of the vibrations, the simultaneous sounding of them, and their relationship to each other, and how they approach a final state of resolution, display a certain amount of wisdom of the composer. The notes could be randomly performed. But the composer has arranged them in patterns and designs which, if done well, never fail to draw forth apprection for the wisdom and knowledge with which some designing mind has created that particular arrangement.
The tones themselves are neutral. People recognize that what has been done to arrange the tones has given rise to a satisfying sense of intelligence in the arrangement. They appreciate the intelligence with which the tones have been made to relate to each other.
At that level of abstraction skill and wisdom are quite normally recognized and appreciated.

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 Message 208 by Jon, posted 06-26-2006 11:14 PM Jon has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 218 of 220 (331230)
07-12-2006 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Izaac
07-06-2006 12:02 PM


Re: Codes and Causation
Tracing back along Bottom-up Causation works, whereas tracing back along Top-Down Causation does not work. And that is the basic problem with Intelligent Design. It sets foot on the imagined but nonexistent path to ever-higher explanations.
The way I see it the bottom up Causation is like this:
The meaning of these letters which you are reading and the words and phrases they represent and communicate come out of the molecules of the material that makes up the pixels forming each letter. There is no outside agent assigning meaning to the letters and their combinations.
What I'm trying to say may be expressed better here:
"Evolution is thus basically an attempt to explain the origin of life from matter and energy without the aid of know-how, concept, teleonomy, or exogenous (extra-material) information. It represents an attempt to explain the formation of the genetic code from the chemical components of DNA without the aid of a genetic concept (information) originating outside the molecules of the chromosomes. This is comparable to the assumption that the text of a book originates from the paper molecules on which the sentences appear, and not from an external source of information ..." A.E Wilder-Smith, Ph.D. Organic Chemistry, University of Reading (England)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Izaac, posted 07-06-2006 12:02 PM Izaac has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Izaac, posted 07-12-2006 7:53 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 220 of 220 (331357)
07-12-2006 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Izaac
07-12-2006 7:53 PM


Re: Codes and Causation
Yes, the physical “text” is molecules of paper and ink which create sensory stimuli sent to the brain, and are there subjected to pattern recognition routines with outputs which work their way up to consciousness.
Pattern recognition?
Then patterns were authored into the text. And the reader recognized these patterns? Doesn't that call for a concept of patterns in the arrangement of the molecules into physical text?
Doesn't that mean that information had two functions. One - information contributed to the arrangement into patterns. And second - information contributed to the recognition of the patterns.
Isn't that the case? If so did this information in the arrangement of the text imposed from outside the molecules of the text or did it come from within them?
But it is there interpreted in context with the authoring process; which is not its cause but its context.
I don't fully understand what you mean here. But does the limits and scope of context come from a concept imposed upon the text from without the molecules of the text or not?
Is context recognized? If so there must have been a concept determining the arrangement of the text which was in turn recognized. Information was imposed upon the text to determine context and information was employed to recognize context.
To predict the “story” in the book from the properties of paper and ink fails for lack of context, as does prediction of the genetic code from its chemical components. The molecules had to flail around for a while before durable formations developed by self-reproduction.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here about context.
I think I do understand what you say about molecules flailing together causing dirt to give rise to brains over a long period of time. And these brains flailed together randomly from molecules, can dream, imagine, calculate, question, argue, explain, and involve themselves in self discovery and conceptualize abstractions such as numbers.
These living minds and these selves, I think you say, are not the product of information imposed upon material from outside of the material.
It is too much to ask me to consider plausible. The same author writes
"Thus according to the laws of physics it is impossible for matter to have organized itself without the aid of energy and of teleonomic machines!"
Scientists always add "know-how" and energy in their experiments to allegedly make successful atempts to create artificial life. Wilder-Smith says that life requires the input of information: the genetic code.
The formula for life is then "matter plus energy plus ideas = life."
I think you are arguing that "matter plus energy = life". Or perhaps "matter plus energy plus huge amounts of time = life."
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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