9/11: 8 10th anniversary

Thought I'd start up an anything-to-do with 9/11 thread. That includes a memorial, conspiracy theories, tributes, whether or not the world is safer/more dangerous, causes to why it happened, causes that may mitigate future attacks, etc, etc.The board is yours. Edited by AdminModulous, : edited titleEdited by Adminnemooseus, : Change 8th to 10th in topic title.

In what way?

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

And to think all that schooling couldn't help me count. Too bad I can't fix the thread title. Admins? You reading this? A little help here...

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

Great suggestion! Since I am a first responder already at work, I'm killing two birds with one stone!

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

9/11 was not due to oil, it was caused by extremists who ideologically disagree with the US. it was due in part, however, because of United State's stance with Israel. Israel, though, was legally given that land by what is known today as the United Nations. If you mean that the United States desires to be the strongest nation in existance, both economically and militarily, I would agree. If, however, you mean "global domination" by owning every piece of land on the earth for its control, I completely disagree. So it is the United State's fault that 9/11 as opposed to Al Qaeda which directed it. I suppose it was Britain's fault that they were bombed by the Luftwaffe.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

That was one of the biggest events in recent human history. Seems only natural to be interested in it.Anyhow thanks for clarifying for me.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

I would have responded to his post, but they're usually too redundant and extraneous. Yes, of course there was a cause as with anything, just not the oft-repeated and ubiquitous plea of "oil." Al Qaeda has an extreme view of Islam. The US is to them the pinnacle of all that is wrong with Western society. They see America as greedy, as salacious, as infidels, as materialistic, as vain, etc. We to them are the representation of all that is wrong with society, including some of your own treasured loves. I'm certain there is some obscure passage in Qu'ran stating how comedians make light of Allah and you therefore should be stoned to death on account of that.As you can tell by the intended targets, the symbolic message through the physical act was to attack the financial, military, and political system of the United States.Message received... It's not the oil, per se, it's the fact that the United State's was wealthy enough to have that much power over oil. The oil is just one facet of why they don't economically like us. The OVERALL situation is our culture. That is their main focus. You do know that there has never ever been a culture known as Palestinians, right? Modern-day Palestinians are largely ethnically Jordanian. In fact, under the Ottoman Empire rule there really were no partitioned countries. It was just a huge area controlled by the Turks, who, believe me, ethnic Middle-Easterns didn't like then or now.The people that were living there were never kicked out, otherwise there would be no one there to fight with. They were granted access to live there forever. The real issue is that they are taught from day one to hate the Jews, which the Qu'ran spells out in no uncertain terms that they are infectious human waste. They are indoctrinated as little children to hate Jews. It's been that way long before Israel was a State.Here's some sick shit! Let me know if you see anything resembling this in Israel. So you're saying that Al Qaeda attacked the US because of military interventionism? Yeah, I'm really sure they cared that the US went to war with communist Vietnam, communists being another arch-enemy of extremist Muslims.This sounds more like a Michael Moore soapbox than something rooted in reality. What in God's name does this have to do with the topic? You honestly believe that Al Qaeda attacked the US because of unions??? Hello!?!? Onifre, I'm sure you despise all things American. Fine, I don't really care. But please deal with the facts of this topic and stop splintering off in to a tirade on EVERYTHING you perceive as an affront on the part of the US. Yes, but that doesn't justify the actions. Your scathing criticism is more aimed at the United States than with the people who used their own scathing criticisms as a justification for the murder of innocent people who have absolutely nothing to do with US foreign policy.Just imagine, all I have to do is blame "The System" for why I killed an old lady in a park. I agree that the US has a bad history of interventionism which leads to what the CIA refers to as, "backlash," but that doesn't mean the US' foreign policy should be completely emasculated or that we should all be made to feel bad if a cat in Yemen gets a splinter in its paw.I wish that the US would not inject near as much foreign policy as it does, I really do. The problem is that the world is becoming more globalized which means trade and other economic transactions have increased. With those very good things come some bad things.Al Qaeda doesn't even factor in to that though. They hate that you watch porn and if the chance came would kill you on that basis. Should we blame the entirety of the porn industry because you liked watching porn? Is it "porn's" fault that Al Qaeda killed you or is it Al Qaeda's fault.Put in to perspective. Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

Psh... They both play a role. Clinton did way too little and Bush did way too much.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

Clinton was incessantly harangued right after 9/11 for what he didn't do, as it was rumored that some years after the first Trade Center attack, that bin Laden was in a special operator's crosshairs but he ultimately called it off.Clinton never did an interview with FOX (for rather obvious reasons) until it became politically necessary to respond to the allegations that he didn't do enough.He took this interview knowing that he was going to respond vociferously, which bolstered the DNC and threw mud in the face of the GOP.You need to remember that the US was attacked SEVEN times by bin Laden PRIOR to 9/11, and 5 of those times under Clinton. The extent of what he accomplished was sending a cruise missile in to an Asprin factory.Bush was a dumbass and a war-mongerer far too prone to military intervention while Clinton was a draft-dodging hippy who is more in love with himself than with his country.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

No, but only because I know the answer. Al Qaeda hates anything that does not conform to their extremely narrow views. They've beheaded anything that gets in their path. They've beheaded Japanese, Italian Filipino peace workers who were feeding Iraq's poor, so that they could use it as a propaganda tool to strike fear in the hearts of millions. They've bombed the Spanish for the same reason.They set their sight's on the US because it is the ultimate representation of their fury against all Western philosophy and culture. Who is listening to media propaganda, not that you'd know whether or not its was propaganda or truth? There exists overwhelming archaeological evidence pointing to the opposite.

quote:

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The real issue is that they are taught from day one to hate the Jews, which the Qu'ran spells out in no uncertain terms that they are infectious human waste. They are indoctrinated as little children to hate Jews. It's been that way long before Israel was a State.

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Media driven propaganda, yes, but from whom? The term "globalization" is extremely broad and in no way should assume negative connotations. You're going to have to be specific. The only spin here is the one you've put on this, where you've painted a false and distorted picture of how everything works. Your argument in a nutshell: America is wrong, Al Qaeda is sort of wrong, but not as bad as America. The overwhelming trend you are exhibiting is that you mostly blame the United States for 9/11. Is that not true? Is this a spin?The evidence of this is in your posts and how you managed smuggle in unions and other irrelevancies through the backdoor when speaking about 9/11. You assume that I'm taking cues from conservative talking points and pundits because I'm not nearly as liberal as you are. I am neither conservative nor liberal, as I feel my political beliefs are too nuanced to categorically side with either one 100% of the time.You aren't saying anything other than typical liberal sound bites, yet you are calling me biased because, even though I don't agree with much of Bush's foreign policies, I place the brunt of the blame on Al Qaeda for what Al Qaeda did as opposed to the blame shifting you are doing.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

Great post, Percy! Thanks for sharing that with all of us.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

Maybe, but not all of them chop your head off or slam 747's in to buildings at 500 mph. Bin Laden was clear that he hates America and hates Israel. From what I can gather, his issues with America seem to be shared by you. Maybe he's not a terrorist after all. Maybe he's just a freedom fighter? Either way it all has a RobinHood-esque feel to it, and he's not a stupid man. He's smart enough to figure out how to play off of America's division to seek his own end. Or maybe that it is his own brand of propaganda. Did you ever consider that he's spreading disinformation intentionally to foster some support here? The more he causes division here, the more his goals can be achieved. It's classic psychological warfare. Oni, wake up and get onboard the reality train. WE invaded them and attacked them first, right? That's what you're saying? Try again. These Islamic extremists have attacked the United States and US assets around the world for decades, without the US doing anything in retaliation. Let me count the ways for you: The Berlin discotheque bombing, Pan Am Flight 103, First World Trade Center bombing, the Khobar Towers, both the embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya, the USS Cole, and finally 9/11 being the straw that breaks the camels back.This doesn't include a huge list of failed or foiled attempts, like the Richard Reid shoebombing, the New York City bomb plot, the 1993 NYC landmark bombing plot, etc, nor does it go over the atrocities faced by our neighbors and allies who have also unjustly suffered the wrath of extremist Islamicists.Yet you sit here and have the audacity, the sheer temerity to say that if we didn't invade Iraq, maybe none of this would have happened???Thousands of people have been killed and tens of thousands more injured over several DECADES where the US has been a target. The United States treated it as criminal cases and did nothing militarily until it became painfully clear that this has now gotten to the point that if the US and her allies don't capture or kill them on their own soil, that they will continue coming here. That fact is made evident by the clear historical trend that has never stopped. Yes they're from news sources, but come from his own mouth. The burden of proof then comes on you to prove that reputable news agencies worldwide, even Muslim news agencies, are all conspiring to lie. It's clear that he hates what America is, its value system, its apostate condition, its greed, its political stance with Israel, its interventionism, all of which I said and all of which he spells out in his own speech. I never said any of that, huh? That's funny because in my first post I stated all of that.You are thinking too narrowly, as if Haliburton and Bush are the real reasons. Obviously not since this predates all of that. So what is your solution, now that Obama is in the White House and still hasn't stopped Bush's Iraq War? What must America be that you honestly think that bin Laden is just going to go away and never shed blood again, even though the Qu'ran is explicit on what should happen to infidels?I'll tell you what America must be to satisfy them. America has to be just like them. Anything less is unacceptable.This is apparently what you fail to understand about him. He will always have some sort of complaint, and if not him, the next in line. This all started before Bush 2, Clinton, Bush 1, Reagan, Carter and there is no sign of it slowing down until we assimilate in to the way they envision their theocratic world should be like. Yes it is. At the end of the day he hates everything about America, which includes all of what you wrote about, but is inclusive to so much more. What I am trying to dispel is the notion that if we just leave Iraq and Afghanistan, all will some how be better. But history tells otherwise as the terrorist attacks all precede these wars and conflicts.At the end of the day, you have to read from his ultimate source, which he takes cues from, namely, the Qu'ran. America is the antithesis of what the Qu'ran spells out. We're apostates and infidels who must stop infecting the world.What you hear from bin Laden are temporary goals. Look at the bigger picture and the end-game solution for these individuals.US foreign policy, if not changed, will eventually lead to a repeat of 9/11. It has nothing to do with our culture.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

I don't think the Iraq War was justifiable, so the insinuations can end here. I'm simply pointing out that terror groups started long before this time.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

If you follow the dialogue and the topic of discussion, we are talking about 9/11 and Al Qaeda which predates the Iraq War. Do you mind staying on topic since all three of us condemn the Iraq war? Congratulations, give the SAS my full regard.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

Imagine applying that rationale to WWII. Allied Forces in WWII should have never sent in the Royal or US Air Force in to Germany. I suppose they should have waited for more Blitzkrieg attacks by the Luftwaffe.What exactly would you agree with, strategically speaking? Because as history will agree, 7, 8, 9 attacks with no kind of retaliation except an embarrassing incident where a cruise missile was sent in to an asprin factory.So what kind of strategy would you suggest, if not an offensive strategy?Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

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"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams