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Author Topic:   9/11: 8 10th anniversary
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 8 of 63 (523618)
09-11-2009 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
09-11-2009 7:26 AM


9/11 should be the day that we remind ourself that there are consequences for trying to control the worlds oil industries, and for supporting the illegal occupation of Israel.
Sadly, lives were lost 8 years ago today due to our governments desire for global domination.
Lets not lose sight of the real reason those towers were destroyed. Every action comes with a re-action, which we may not like.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-11-2009 7:26 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-11-2009 1:57 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 12 of 63 (523628)
09-11-2009 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Hyroglyphx
09-11-2009 1:57 PM


I couldn't have said it better than Rahvin, but I'll answer your specifics.
9/11 was not due to oil, it was caused by extremists who ideologically disagree with the US.
The acts themselves, the towers, Pentagon, etc., yes, were caused by, (losely worded) extremists. But no action, especially not one to the degree of 9/11, comes without an inciting cause.
The US's strong-hold on the worlds oil supply, which affiliates them with the Saudi Royal family, was one of those inciting causes. Supporting Israel's illegal occupation, was another.
Israel, though, was legally given that land by what is known today as the United Nations.
Sure, if you make up your own laws then your actions can be considered legal, by the same people that made the laws up. But when viewed from an outside perspective, one that takes into consideration the people who lived there before Israel invaded and occupied, it was not a legal action.
If you mean that the United States desires to be the strongest nation in existance, both economically and militarily, I would agree. If, however, you mean "global domination" by owning every piece of land on the earth for its control, I completely disagree.
What I'm refering to is Globalization; I'm refering to the global spread of US political ideoligies, religious ideologies and cultural ideologies, with military action. It's the same tactic used by early Christian churches to spread the "good" word. "Accept what we want to give you or die defending yourselves." Not much of a choice, eh?
The negative aspects of globalization:
quote:
Poorer countries suffering disadvantages: While it is true that globalization encourages free trade among countries, there are also negative consequences because some countries try to save their national markets. The main export of poorer countries is usually agricultural goods. Larger countries often subsidise their farmers (like the EU Common Agricultural Policy), which lowers the market price for the poor farmer's crops compared to what it would be under free trade.
Exploitation of foreign impoverished workers: The deterioration of protections for weaker nations by stronger industrialized powers has resulted in the exploitation of the people in those nations to become cheap labor. Due to the lack of protections, companies from powerful industrialized nations are able to offer workers enough salary to entice them to endure extremely long hours and unsafe working conditions, though economists question if consenting workers in a competitive employers' market can be decried as "exploited". It is true that the workers are free to leave their jobs, but in many poorer countries, this would mean starvation for the worker, and possible even his/her family if their previous jobs were unavailable.
The shift to outsourcing: The low cost of offshore workers have enticed corporations to buy goods and services from foreign countries. The laid off manufacturing sector workers are forced into the service sector where wages and benefits are low, but turnover is high .[citation needed] This has contributed to the deterioration of the middle class[citation needed] which is a major factor in the increasing economic inequality in the United States .[citation needed] Families that were once part of the middle class are forced into lower positions by massive layoffs and outsourcing to another country. This also means that people in the lower class have a much harder time climbing out of poverty because of the absence of the middle class as a stepping stone.
Weak labor unions: The surplus in cheap labor coupled with an ever growing number of companies in transition has caused a weakening of labor unions in the United States. Unions lose their effectiveness when their membership begins to decline. As a result unions hold less power over corporations that are able to easily replace workers, often for lower wages, and have the option to not offer unionized jobs anymore.
Increase exploitation of child labor: for example, a country that experiencing increases in labor demand because of globalization and an increase the demand for goods produced by children, will experience greater a demand for child labor. This can be "hazardous" or exploitive, e.g., quarrying, salvage, cash cropping but also includes the trafficking of children, children in bondage or forced labor, prostitution, pornography and other illicit activities.
Just to mention a few...
So it is the United State's fault that 9/11 as opposed to Al Qaeda which directed it.
The act itself was due to Al Qaeda, the reason for the attack was due to US foreign policies.
Like Rahvin stated, the US didn't deserve it, but that is besides the point. Actions have consequences.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-11-2009 1:57 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-11-2009 4:40 PM onifre has replied
 Message 16 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-11-2009 4:42 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 22 of 63 (523649)
09-11-2009 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by New Cat's Eye
09-11-2009 4:40 PM


Sounds an aweful lot like: "She was asking for it."
It shouldn't, but I can see how you came to that conclusion.
The thing is that the US government never feels their actions warrent repercussions from those who they shit on. So they weren't "asking for it," they just figured nothing was going to happen because no one had the balls to attack us. So they continued to shit on other countries, till someone said fuck it, and did what they did.
The point of what I'm saying is that we shouldn't lose focus on what happened and lose sight of the reasons why things like that occur. If you fuck with enough people, oppress enough nations, supply weapons to enough tyrannical governments, place no value on the human rights of those in 3rd world countries, eventually, that kind of attitude will bit you in the ass. And at that point, the US government can't start acting like bitches 'cause someone did to us exactly what we've been doing to them for 50 years.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-11-2009 4:40 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 23 of 63 (523657)
09-11-2009 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Hyroglyphx
09-11-2009 4:42 PM


They see America as greedy, as salacious, as infidels, as materialistic, as vain, etc.
I always wondered what Al Qaeda's view of Canada or Switzerland is? Ever wonder that? Why the US, when everyone knows we're never greedy...
We to them are the representation of all that is wrong with society, including some of your own treasured loves. I'm certain there is some obscure passage in Qu'ran stating how comedians make light of Allah and you therefore should be stoned to death on account of that.
I'll remember not to book any shows in Afghanistan.
As you can tell by the intended targets, the symbolic message through the physical act was to attack the financial, military, and political system of the United States.
Yes, and not Hollywood, comedy clubs or malls. Your point?
The OVERALL situation is our culture. That is their main focus.
This is media driven bullshit. Bin Laden explained exactly why he attacked us, none of it has to do with our culture. But don't listen to him and listen to media propaganda, maybe the next building they bring down will help you understand.
You do know that there has never ever been a culture known as Palestinians, right?
You do know that there was never a country named Israel, right?
The people that were living there were never kicked out, otherwise there would be no one there to fight with. They were granted access to live there forever.
Wow...
The real issue is that they are taught from day one to hate the Jews, which the Qu'ran spells out in no uncertain terms that they are infectious human waste. They are indoctrinated as little children to hate Jews. It's been that way long before Israel was a State.
More media driven propaganda. Complete bullshit.
So you're saying that Al Qaeda attacked the US because of military interventionism? Yeah, I'm really sure they cared that the US went to war with communist Vietnam, communists being another arch-enemy of extremist Muslims.
Did you read the link? Do you understand what globalization is?
Onifre, I'm sure you despise all things American.
I'm despising one thing American right now. You, and the spin that you've put on what I've said.
But please deal with the facts of this topic and stop splintering off in to a tirade on EVERYTHING you perceive as an affront on the part of the US.
Honestly dude, you need to re-read my post and try to understand it better and stop acting like a punk about it. You've clearly not understood my position so it would be better, if you care to debate this, if you did understand it before running off into your own little tirades.
Yes, but that doesn't justify the actions.
Who the fuck is saying that the actions are justified?
I agree that the US has a bad history of interventionism which leads to what the CIA refers to as, "backlash," but that doesn't mean the US' foreign policy should be completely emasculated or that we should all be made to feel bad if a cat in Yemen gets a splinter in its paw.
I wish that the US would not inject near as much foreign policy as it does, I really do. The problem is that the world is becoming more globalized which means trade and other economic transactions have increased. With those very good things come some bad things.
Al Qaeda doesn't even factor in to that though. They hate that you watch porn and if the chance came would kill you on that basis. Should we blame the entirety of the porn industry because you liked watching porn? Is it "porn's" fault that Al Qaeda killed you or is it Al Qaeda's fault.
When you're ready stop giving me the FoxNews babble let me know, and we can continue talking about this. Till then, save the O'Reilly speech for someone who cares to hear that bias garbage.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-11-2009 4:42 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Rahvin, posted 09-11-2009 7:28 PM onifre has not replied
 Message 26 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-12-2009 10:00 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 28 of 63 (523746)
09-12-2009 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Hyroglyphx
09-12-2009 10:00 AM


you had me at "pot"
No, but only because I know the answer. Al Qaeda hates anything that does not conform to their extremely narrow views.
Ever been to the South? Tell you what, walk into a diner in some little town off of 95 in the South with a gay comic, an arab comic and a black comic, and see how well they take you in. - (We had to leave beacuse it was clear we weren't getting served).
ALL fundamentalist hate anything what doesn't conform to their extremely narrow views. You're not breaking new ground here, Hyro.
But why America? You said because "it is the ultimate representation of their fury against all Western philosophy and culture."
But the problem with that is, that's not what Bin Laden said. This is what I'm trying to explain - He gave specific reasons why he did it and you're not listening to his reasons, and it seems like you're only listening to the media and their reason for why Bin Laden did it. How clearer did Bin Laden have to be?
Not listening to his reasons and creating this illusional reason is going to lead to an eventual repeat of that tragic event.
They've beheaded anything that gets in their path.
Yes, and that's horrific. I would never think otherwise. But have you ever watched the footage of Hiroshima? People do shitty things.
They've beheaded Japanese, Italian Filipino peace workers who were feeding Iraq's poor, so that they could use it as a propaganda tool to strike fear in the hearts of millions.
Man, how could we have avoided that...? Oh yea, by not going into Iraq! The only reason they are "able to strike fear in the hearts of millions" is because Bush INVADED Iraq with absolutely no reason for doing so, then you get pissy when they attack back, WTF?
You're a pro-gun dude, how would you react if they invaded us? Don't be a hypocrite, Hyro. We invaded that country for no reason, you don't want bad things to happening to good people in Iraq? Then lets get the fuck out of there. Because that's exactly what YOU would want if they invaded us, for them to leave.
Who is listening to media propaganda, not that you'd know whether or not its was propaganda or truth?
Bin Laden gave his reasons for doing it, show me the evidence that our culture and Western philosophy is one of them. If not, then admit you got that from some news source and Bin Laden never said it.
The term "globalization" is extremely broad and in no way should assume negative connotations. You're going to have to be specific.
Like give you the negative aspects of it? Check Message 12 I gave them to you.
The only spin here is the one you've put on this, where you've painted a false and distorted picture of how everything works.
I'm not painting a picture, I'm telling you what Bin Laden said were his reasons for attacking. You're the one saying it's for other reasons, but Bin Laden doesn't mention the reasons you give. So, the burden of proof falls on you my friend.
Your argument in a nutshell: America is wrong, Al Qaeda is sort of wrong, but not as bad as America. The overwhelming trend you are exhibiting is that you mostly blame the United States for 9/11. Is that not true? Is this a spin?
This is wrong. Yes, you've spun it.
Let me make it clear, Mr. O'Reilly, so that you can understand me better. I'm not blaming the US for the attacks, I'm saying to realize the reasons why we were attacked - THE REAL REASONS- so that tragic events like 9/11 can be avoided in the future. But not understanding the real reasons for the attacks will only lead to further attacks.
Is that better, Bill?
The evidence of this is in your posts and how you managed smuggle in unions and other irrelevancies through the backdoor when speaking about 9/11.
The union was mentioned when explaining the negative effects of globalization. The same negative effects that you're asking me for in this post.
You assume that I'm taking cues from conservative talking points and pundits because I'm not nearly as liberal as you are.
No, it doesn't, that's what you think it's because of. But it's not, though. It's because, instead of listening to Bin Laden's reasons for attacking, you're telling me it's for other reasons, reasons he doesn't mention. So where did you get these reasons from? The news media? Did you make them up? Is that your take on the situation? Bin Laden was specific, he was clear in his reasons, he doesn't mention the reasons you give, so where did those reasons come from?
I place the brunt of the blame on Al Qaeda for what Al Qaeda did as opposed to the blame shifting you are doing.
Again I'll try to explain it because you're wrong. I blame Al Qaeda as well. You see, we agree. BUT, like I said before, this is about the reasons why they attacked. You said it's because of our culture, but it's not. Bin Laden is clear as to why he did it, and it has nothing to do with our culture.
US foreign policy, if not changed, will eventually lead to a repeat of 9/11. It has nothing to do with our culture.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-12-2009 10:00 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-13-2009 8:44 AM onifre has not replied

  
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