Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 89 (8876 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-10-2018 8:58 PM
192 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Bill Holbert
Post Volume:
Total: 843,774 Year: 18,597/29,783 Month: 542/2,043 Week: 94/386 Day: 44/50 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1617
18
19202122Next
Author Topic:   EVOLUTION'S FRAUD HAS CONTRIBUTED TO ITS PUBLIC ACCEPTANCE:
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16065
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 256 of 323 (525921)
09-25-2009 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by Archangel
09-24-2009 8:18 PM


Thoughts On The Paranoid Mind
You see Granny, this question which has been repeated ad infinitum by you and your cohorts is a perfect example of your blatant dishonesty and disingenuous debating style. It also reveals your sides cockiness and sanctimonious belief that you can con us by insisting that I answer a question you know cannot be answered from any source on the web since you have done the required searches yourself and know it has been erased from the on line journals, so the info no longer exists on the net. Which just confirms the power of this cult.

This demonstrates one of the more peculiar aspects of the paranoid mind. I've noticed it in "9/11 Truthers", too.

You see, the thing is that he supposes, as demonstrated not just by this post but by the whole tenor of this thread, that there has been a great big enormous and all-but all-powerful effort to con people into accepting evolution.

And yet when he encounters any particular person who does, in fact, accept evolution, such as Granny Magda, he doesn't suppose that Granny has been duped by the conspiracy. He supposes that she's part of it. While supposing that there's this huge conspiracy to fool everyone, he can't believe that any particular person has been fooled by it. In his view of the world, there are no dupes, there are only shills.

He has a fantasy that all the evidence that he's right has been destroyed by an evolutionist cabal. But he can't believe that the destruction of all the evidence that he's right is the reason why Granny Magda thinks that there's no evidence that he's right: even though that would be a perfectly adequate explanation. No, he also believes that she is part of the internet-controlling cabal and is a knowing party to the purging of the evidence.

This is exactly the same as what I see with the "9/11 Truthers". On the one hand, they suppose that there has been a plot so devilishly clever as to fool almost the entire world --- but on the other hand, if you tell them that you think that Bush was not behind 9/11, they immediately accuse you of being in the pay of the CIA.

In both cases, the nuts suppose that there is a vast, intricate, and cunning conspiracy to fool people into accepting some proposition --- but if anyone says that they accept that proposition, then the nuts immediately conclude that that person has not been fooled by that conspiracy, but rather that they are part of it.

There are no dupes, there are only shills. And thus the conspiracy theorists manage to believe in an all-powerful world-spanning conspiracy to deceive people which they also apparently believe has not, in fact, deceived anyone at all.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Archangel, posted 09-24-2009 8:18 PM Archangel has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Admin, posted 09-25-2009 9:16 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12565
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 257 of 323 (525930)
09-25-2009 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Dr Adequate
09-25-2009 8:49 AM


Re: Thoughts On The Paranoid Mind
I know Archangel left himself wide open for these types of replies, but let's keep the focus on the topic. The ball's in Archangel's court right now. If he chooses to reply then the discussion can continue.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-25-2009 8:49 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
Archangel
Member (Idle past 746 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 258 of 323 (525936)
09-25-2009 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by RAZD
09-25-2009 7:40 AM


In rebuttal to false claims of submitting evidence by evos.
I have placed the original content of this post in a "hide", please click on Peek to see it, but do not reply to it. Following is all the original content that bore on the topic. --Admin

But I have already said ad infinitum that I don't reject the observable evidence, ONLY YOUR INTERPRETATION OF IT.

RAZD writes:

If it's closing time, I would like to reference Message 64, which answers all the false assertions of the website that Archangel copied and pastes, and which Archangel has not responded to.
This post falsifies his position, but he has not seen fit to even try to rebut the evidence that I've presented, content instead to deny that it is evidence and snipe from the sidelines.

This is sufficient to show that he has no argument AND no rebuttal.

I constantly marvel that you evos insist that just because you continue to post what I have rejected as false and misleading interpretations of observed artifacts, that you have somehow answered my assertions which you claim are false but have not proven in any way at all. Here you also prove my point by posting the photo evidence of Java Man so proudly, as if a skull cap 2 femurs and a tooth is evidence of anything at all that would add up to a life size figure of a primitive man. The only real skill your cult possesses is that of great imaginations and creative fiction writers.

So stop claiming that any of your posts have contributed actual evidence of anything here which is why I haven't responded to them. You think that if you overload us with volumes of info, none of which is verifiable by objective sources which aren't directly involved in defending this pseudo science, that you can then claim that you have offered real evidence of anything. But I have already said ad infinitum that I don't reject the observable evidence, ONLY YOUR INTERPRETATION OF IT. So your claim of victory in closing this thread will NOT stand as long as I'm around. [/hide]

Edited by Admin, : Distill down to the on-topic portions.

Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by RAZD, posted 09-25-2009 7:40 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by bluescat48, posted 09-25-2009 9:38 AM Archangel has not yet responded
 Message 260 by Admin, posted 09-25-2009 9:40 AM Archangel has responded
 Message 261 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-25-2009 9:43 AM Archangel has not yet responded
 Message 263 by dokukaeru, posted 09-25-2009 9:50 AM Archangel has not yet responded
 Message 271 by RAZD, posted 09-25-2009 6:55 PM Archangel has responded
 Message 287 by obvious Child, posted 09-25-2009 11:39 PM Archangel has not yet responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2165 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 259 of 323 (525937)
09-25-2009 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Archangel
09-25-2009 9:32 AM


Re: In rebuttal to false claims of submitting evidence by evos.
Archangel writes:

The only real skill your cult possesses is that of great imaginations and creative fiction writers.

Again your quote does not apply to evos but the the book of Genesis, creative fiction writers.

As for responding, you started the topic, you claim fraud so it is up to you to give the evidence of fraud, which in your creobabble & creowebsites, have not.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Archangel, posted 09-25-2009 9:32 AM Archangel has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12565
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 260 of 323 (525938)
09-25-2009 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Archangel
09-25-2009 9:32 AM


Re: In rebuttal to false claims of submitting evidence by evos.
Hi Archangel,

I really need everyone to begin addressing their responses to the topic. This usually takes the form of offering evidence and argument for one's position. If you'd like to discuss some other topic, then please propose it over at Proposed New Topics.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Archangel, posted 09-25-2009 9:32 AM Archangel has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Archangel, posted 09-25-2009 11:57 AM Admin has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16065
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 261 of 323 (525939)
09-25-2009 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Archangel
09-25-2009 9:32 AM


Re: In rebuttal to false claims of submitting evidence by evos.
So, do you have any evidence for the claims made in your OP?

---

A Polite Request

If I say "pretty please",
if I beg on my knees,
if I pray and petition and plead,
if I sigh and I cry
will you prove you don't lie
by supplying the facts that I need?
All I want is a soupçon or grain or iota
of evidence backing your view;
when I ask for one fact, and you can't meet the quota,
it looks like you don't have a clue.

All I'm asking (good grief) is
some proof your belief is
more real than the average dream:
not a lot, just a little:
a jot, or a tittle,
a smidgen, an inkling, a gleam.
For I've heard your position, but still I'm not gleaning
a speck or scintilla or scrap
of a pinch of a dash of an atom of meaning
to show that you're not talking crap.

Don't be mute, don't be dumb
but let fall just a crumb
of the reason you think what you think,
or the glimmer or glint
of a tip or a hint ---
I'd make do with a nod and a wink.
I've asked you politely with patience and tact,
and so now let me ask you again
for a shred of a shard of a fragment of fact
to convince me you've not gone insane.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Archangel, posted 09-25-2009 9:32 AM Archangel has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Kitsune, posted 09-25-2009 9:47 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 2275 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 262 of 323 (525942)
09-25-2009 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Dr Adequate
09-25-2009 9:43 AM


Re: In rebuttal to false claims of submitting evidence by evos.
Dr. A you are outdoing yourself in this thread. I'm going to spray my drink all over my computer if I laugh any harder.

Edited by LindaLou, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-25-2009 9:43 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
dokukaeru
Member (Idle past 2590 days)
Posts: 129
From: ohio
Joined: 06-27-2008


Message 263 of 323 (525945)
09-25-2009 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Archangel
09-25-2009 9:32 AM


Re: In rebuttal to false claims of submitting evidence by evos.
Archangel writes:

So your claim of victory in closing this thread will NOT stand as long as I'm around.


I really don't think anyone here besides yourself has claimed victory.
I think most people here would count it as a minor victory if you would go through and just address some of the evidence thats already been presented.
Message 255
Doku writes:

I know that some members have treated you somewhat harshly, but you must understand that there are probably dozens of identical topics like this one on this forum and elsewhere. These members have become jaded and callous to your arguements because they have heard every claim you have made, rebutted them only to have the participant do exactly what you have done. Sometimes when I am bored, I go through and look at some of the older topics to see what kind of stuff was discussed there.I have tried not to do this to you. I am fairly new to discussions/debates like this one, but i am quickly realizing what the more experienced members have already learned.
If you feel you are being outnumbered, it is possible to have this discussion with only 1 or 2 people to respond to. I would really like to see you stick around

One last thing: Is your posting here on EVC in any way related to a class you may be taking?


Thanks,
Joe
This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Archangel, posted 09-25-2009 9:32 AM Archangel has not yet responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 270 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 264 of 323 (525953)
09-25-2009 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by dokukaeru
09-25-2009 8:10 AM


dokukaeru writes:

One last thing: Is your posting here on EVC in any way related to a class you may be taking?


This I can answer fairly confidently. No, he's from another forum where others who post here are also posting. (4fomrus I believe). I posted there myself for some time, and Archy basically posts the same way there as he has over here. But since the moderation there isn't nearly as strict as it is here, I left there, since there's no point when no one is forced to stay on topic or to debate in good faith.


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by dokukaeru, posted 09-25-2009 8:10 AM dokukaeru has not yet responded

    
Archangel
Member (Idle past 746 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 265 of 323 (525989)
09-25-2009 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by Admin
09-25-2009 9:40 AM


Re: In rebuttal to false claims of submitting evidence by evos.
Admin writes:

Hi Archangel,
I really need everyone to begin addressing their responses to the topic. This usually takes the form of offering evidence and argument for one's position. If you'd like to discuss some other topic, then please propose it over at Proposed New Topics.

I responded directly and on point to RAZD's attempt to imply that he posted evidence I ignored, thereby implying that I failed to defend my position. I rightly pointed out that I interpret the available observations differently than he does so his assertion that he has posted any evidence at all in rebuttal to my OP is absolutely false. That was the point of the post you placed in peek and i stand by it as a valid rebuttal to his attempt to claim that he posted actual evidence I somehow couldn't refute.

Yet when I finally do respond to his alleged evidence and rebut it, it gets placed in this peek place which I don't understand at all what that means. And how can you accept any of the responses to me as on topic when all they do is ignore what I say? Is that what's accepted as debate around here? That believers are held to a different standard than evolutionists?

I have never once claimed that Creation can be proved scientifically. I have insisted though that if evolution claims to be a true science than let them prove that the foundation upon which their science is based is true in any way. This repeated request has been consistently ignored as they respond with demands that I support my claim that evolutions false and fraudulent claims have contributed to its public acceptance. But my repeated question which goes ignored and unanswered by one and all, is the greatest evidence that evolution is an absolute and unmitigated fraud which cannot hold up to the simplest scrutiny since it can't even prove it is built upon a solid foundation of proven science which has been born out in any verifiable or repeatable laboratory tests anywhere on earth at any time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Admin, posted 09-25-2009 9:40 AM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Coyote, posted 09-25-2009 12:09 PM Archangel has responded
 Message 267 by dokukaeru, posted 09-25-2009 12:53 PM Archangel has not yet responded
 Message 269 by Admin, posted 09-25-2009 1:45 PM Archangel has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 81 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 266 of 323 (525993)
09-25-2009 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Archangel
09-25-2009 11:57 AM


Re: In rebuttal to false claims of submitting evidence by evos.
I rightly pointed out that I interpret the available observations differently than he does...

Not all interpretations are equal.

Some agree with the majority, or all of the evidence. Others contradict that evidence.

Your failure to see and acknowledge the evidence that contradicts your interpretation does not make that evidence go away.

You are, in effect, looking at the blue sky and claiming that it is pink.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Archangel, posted 09-25-2009 11:57 AM Archangel has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Archangel, posted 09-25-2009 12:56 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
dokukaeru
Member (Idle past 2590 days)
Posts: 129
From: ohio
Joined: 06-27-2008


Message 267 of 323 (526002)
09-25-2009 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Archangel
09-25-2009 11:57 AM


Re: In rebuttal to false claims of submitting evidence by evos.
Hello Archangel!
Archangel writes:

Yet when I finally do respond to his alleged evidence and rebut it, it gets placed in this peek place which I don't understand at all what that means.

Your response was boiled down to "Nu-uh" without actually examining the evidence or discussing it. Its pretty much what you have continued to do for 40ish post Archangel.
In Message 64
RAZD gives you the definition of fraud and hoax and then asks if agree with those definitions. He then goes on to show you that despite of alleged hoaxes, evolution is still a valid science.
This topic is supposed to be you showing hoax after hoax after hoax and how they have been used to further a supposed world wide scientific conspiracy to cover up the truth that evolution has more holes than swiss cheese. What you have successfully demonstrated is the only hoaxes and frauds are old creationist talking points that themsvelves are fraudlent beyond any reasonable doubt.
You really should try and be honest here and address what someone says for instance:

quote:
Yes I agree those definitions of hoax and fraud are correct. Here is an example from a high school science book of piltdown man being used to further evolution...yada yada yada

Instead we see something like:
Coyote writes:

You are, in effect, looking at the blue sky and claiming that it is pink.

We cannot tell if you really believe the sky is pink or if you are trying to decieve us that the sky is pink.

Thanks,
Joe


This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Archangel, posted 09-25-2009 11:57 AM Archangel has not yet responded

    
Archangel
Member (Idle past 746 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 268 of 323 (526003)
09-25-2009 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Coyote
09-25-2009 12:09 PM


Re: In rebuttal to false claims of submitting evidence by evos.
Coyote writes:

Not all interpretations are equal.

In this case they are completely equal since many responses by your side to my oft repeated requests for absolute evidence that your claims of evolution are founded in fact have resulted in your side admitting that no scientific conclusions are absolute. So my interpretations are definitely as valid as yours since you readily admit that you can't prove your interpretations either.

Some agree with the majority, or all of the evidence. Others contradict that evidence.

Your failure to see and acknowledge the evidence that contradicts your interpretation does not make that evidence go away.

Again, your interpretations may disagree with my interpretation of the available observations we both make, but that doesn't mean you are right. All it means is that we don't have all of the facts needed in order to come to a naturally explained conclusion for what we observe. And I'm honest enough, unlike you, to admit that applies to me too.

Neither side has all the answers but you are attempting to explain a supernatural event through natural means, and you can't accomplish it no matter how many nice stories you devise to turn a pigs tooth, a donkeys skull or a modern era skull dipped in tea into various major steps in human evolution.

You are, in effect, looking at the blue sky and claiming that it is pink.

Not true at all. I am forcing you to prove that the sky you claim came to be by accident, actually did occur naturally and not by supernatural means as I maintain caused it to exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Coyote, posted 09-25-2009 12:09 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-25-2009 6:19 PM Archangel has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12565
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 269 of 323 (526013)
09-25-2009 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Archangel
09-25-2009 11:57 AM


Re: In rebuttal to false claims of submitting evidence by evos.
Hi Archangel,

Let me try to help coax discussion back to the topic by focusing attention on one thing at a time. I did notice your bolding of "argument", but note that I did say "evidence and argument." You can't just argue, you have to build your arguments around evidence.

You said something important in Message 268:

Archangel writes:

All it means is that we don't have all of the facts needed in order to come to a naturally explained conclusion for what we observe. And I'm honest enough, unlike you, to admit that applies to me too.

So keeping this in mind, let's focus on just one thing, the evidence for fraud concerning Orce man. Is there evidence that Orce man is a fraud? If so, please describe it. Please try to avoid hearsay evidence.

You can respond to this message, but address your response to the other participants. Now that I'm moderating I'm just trying to channel discussion onto productive avenues. I'm no longer a participant.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Archangel, posted 09-25-2009 11:57 AM Archangel has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16065
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 270 of 323 (526063)
09-25-2009 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Archangel
09-25-2009 12:56 PM


Re: In rebuttal to false claims of submitting evidence by evos.
In this case they are completely equal since many responses by your side to my oft repeated requests for absolute evidence that your claims of evolution are founded in fact have resulted in your side admitting that no scientific conclusions are absolute. So my interpretations are definitely as valid as yours since you readily admit that you can't prove your interpretations either.

The principles of epistemology do not actually mean that the statements "all pigs fly" and "no pigs fly" are equivalent, nor that a bunch of halfwitted gibberish is equivalent to evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Archangel, posted 09-25-2009 12:56 PM Archangel has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
1617
18
19202122Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018