TOE and the Reasons for Doubt

No, we know what the sequence happens to be. It does not *need* to be this sequence. Try again.

Wrong again You are fixated on the outcome, a classic probability mistake. You have to consider the space of all possible outcomes, of which the observed antenna is just one outcome.

Nonsense. It makes complete sense because it is true, irrespective of your take on creation or evolution. Unless you think that probability theory is also an invention of the devil and not to be trusted

Not in the slightest - I am talking about your confusion between an observed outcome and the entire outcome probability space. This is mathematics, not genetics.

You can try... ...and fail. Of course I'm not saying this. The observed antenna is just one acceptable outcome. How big is the space of acceptable oucomes? I haven't a clue. If you say so

If we're talking about outcomes over all creatures, then looking around at every creature upon the planet, I don't see many with fruitfly wings, so I can agree with you.If you are talking about a single generation, with some hypothetical wing-less proto-fruitfly population suddenly developing wings overnight, I'd also agree with you. Is this how you think fruitflies got their wings in an evolutionary scenario?Perhaps you need to define a bit more clearly exactly what you're trying to say? Err, you may want to rethink that number Seriously though, a fruitfly's wing not being arrived at from what? A fruitfly that doesn't have wings?

No, what you mean is that *THE* gene, the observed gene, relating to a fruitfly's wing is a vanishingly small fraction of this.Question 1) How many possible genes would lead to a working wing?Question 2) Why do we even need a wing?

Yeah, my coffee exploded all over my screen when I read your drivel Given that I utterly refuted your nonsense in a single post, do you think you could go back over there and acknowledge - thanks.

Who expects you to believe that Darwin was spot on? What a stupid thing to expect. Please state who did this so that we can laugh at them.

Peg, this is so easy, why are you not getting it?The first complex cells were produced from the last ever-so-slightly-less-than-complex cells. And the earlier not-quite-so-complex cells came from the ever-so-slightly-less-than-not-quite-so-complex cells.Ok, let's turn it around. Here's a possible scenario for the first cells - they were just 'bubbles' with a lipid membrane or wall and with sea water on the inside. Pure mineral. Free lipids in the sea would be drawn into the membrane and the 'bubble' would grow. Turbulence in the water would cause large bubbles to pinch off into two bubbles. This is the very start. How complex is this?These bubbles then become great containers for organic molecules, which pass in and out of the bubble. Some of these organic molecules can self-polymerise (form long chanins), and then become trapped inside the 'bubbles' as they are too large to migrate through the lipid membrane. Some of polymers could even duplicate themselves. But so far they don't "do" anything - they just sit inside their lipid containers.But some polymers could be produced that are useful - say they catalyse the formation of more lipids. Now, those bubbles with lipid-producing polymers will grow more, as they have more lipids, and will then split more readily because they are larger, spreading more lipid bubbles about with the lipid-making polymers inside. And so life begins...Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

It's a work in progress What I wrote is based on Jack W. Szostak's ideas - who has just won the 2009 Nobel for Medicine - check his website here

Peg, in the scenario for abiogenesis I outlined for you, we saw proto-cells reproducing. How much protein and DNA did these proto-cells contain?

Huh? Oh, the caving Believe me, as much as I love crawling through the tighest holes in rock, I am no geologist! Unfortunately, there is far too much evidence! Because of the ubiquitous nature of life on Earth, there are organic compounds of every type, everywhere - and I mean everywhere! And the other problem is that we cannot see abiogenesis still occuring because even if conditions were again suitable, the existing microbial life would gobble up anything that half resembled a new proto-cell in the making. The deep ocean hydrothermal vents are the favourite location for where abiogensis may have occurred, but today these are teaming with life of every magnitude.