Living fossils expose evolution

Tomorrow morning I will begin playing an active moderator role in this forum. As prelude let me make these requests:

• When images are used to support a point, they should be accompanied be some explanatory or interpretive text.
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• When in your own mind you decide that someone is behaving like a blithering idiot, let it pass without comment.
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• Keep discussion focused on the topic and not on the participants themselves, because they are not the thread's topic. The thread's topic concerns living fossils.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi everyone!As I said earlier today, tomorrow morning I will begin actively moderating this thread, so I'd like to give you all a flavor of what my expectations will be. This thread now has 215 messages, and I'm sure that not much thought was put into very many of them. Threads that accumulate messages at such a rapid pace means that more typing than thinking and researching is going on.To those of you who are putting time and thought and effort into your posts, let me assure you that it is apparent. For those of you who are not, let me assure you that this, too, is apparent.Tomorrow morning there will be no warnings. I will merely begin removing babblers and trolls from the discussion by issuing short 24-hour suspensions. I'll also probably make specific requests to help keep discussion more focused so that issues can get more attention and be explored in more detail.As always, I'll be using the Forum Guidelines as my guide for what constitutes constructively contributing to discussion, so some of you might want to look them over, there's only 10. The Forum Guidelines take no sides in the debate, and neither do I. I'm on the side of clarity of expression and quality of evidence.AbE: For those of you who are certain beyond doubt that you don't fall into the "babbler and troll" category, it's your responsibility to make sure to behave in way that makes it possible for me to tell the difference. Last time I checked I still wasn't omniscient, so those of you who are bit more, uh, flamboyant in your responses and who have a tendency toward brinkmanship might want to give yourselves some leeway.Edited by Admin, : Add "AbE" section at the end.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I'm now actively moderating this thread. Please follow the Forum Guidelines. Perhaps my request from last night had an effect, I don't know, but I see no problems in this thread at present.For those who feel they are experiencing problems in discussion, do not try to handle these yourself. These can be reported at Report discussion problems here: No.2.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

There's a new thread for this topic: Evolution of Air-breathing Tetrapods

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Calypsis4,I expect that the other participants will raise precisely the same issues with this example that they raised concerning your previous examples. Rather than restarting discussion of these issues from scratch with each new example, I suggest focusing attention on them with regard to just a single example, and then discussing the most significant issues to a conclusion. This new example you've just introduced would be fine, but any of your examples would also do. I leave it to the participants to decide which example might serve best.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

That's fine. In case you decide to return to this topic, let me choose a specific one of your examples of lack of evolutionary change that discussion can focus upon. I choose your bat example from Message 1.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Let us please keep the focus on the topic of discussion and leave our feelings about other participants and their performance out of it.Calypsis4, when you announce you're leaving a thread it's much like an open invitation for closing summary style comments like LindaLou's. There's no need to announce any particular intent, even if within your own mind you're certain you're done with this thread, because as you've discovered, staying true to an announcement of departure isn't all that easy. You can just let this thread lie fallow while you participate in other threads, or while you go do something else entirely. If and when you decide to resume participation in this thread it will still be here.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Calypsis4,Since you've decided to continue participation in this thread, please note that I requested back in Message 275 that discussion focus on a single example, the bat from Message 1.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Calypsis,I've given you a short 1 hour suspension so that you have time to notice that in Message 275 and Message 284 I requested that you focus on a single example, the bat from Message 1. Also, please stay on-topic. I'm also issuing short suspensions to any others who have gone off-topic.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I will henceforth begin issuing short suspensions for posts with no on-topic content. If you've posted completely off-topic before seeing this, fix it quick.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Calypsis4,None of the other participants understands why living fossils, for which we're using bats as an example, are evidence against evolution. I think it would help move the discussion along if you could provide more details about how a living creature very similar to an extinct creature disproves evolution.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I've just issued a couple one-day suspensions for not following moderator requests and for posting off-topic.I will continue issuing short suspensions for Forum Guidelines violations and for posting messages with no content that addresses how the example of bats either confirms or disproves evolution.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I have regretfully issued one day suspensions to several more people for posting off-topic. The only off-topic posters spared were relative newbies. If you click on the "Admin Posts Only" link to your left you'll see that the topic is living fossils, and the example we're focusing on is bats.To Calypsis:I understand that you find this very difficult to believe, but no one understands why you think your argument of "Is it still a bat? Yes? End of story!" is so effective an argument against evolution that it requires no elaboration. Incredible, I know, but there it is.The rebuttals have offered several relevant explanations, and I think if you begin addressing these that it would help move the discussion forward. For example, one of these explanations says that evolutionary change is a response to environmental change, and that environments that change little provoke little evolutionary change.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Calypsis4,In looking over today's posts it looks like you're done responding to the rebuttals about bats, but I wanted to check with you to make sure. For instance, at one point you said you do not accept the echo location evidence, but you didn't provide any counter-evidence or give any rationale, and there were other points that you rejected in the same way. Is this where you want to leave it? Because if so, I'm going to ask for people to post summations, after which I'll close the thread.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

To everyone,Summation time. Please only post summations, and do not respond to anyone else's summation. Keep summations dispassionate and focused on the topic, not on your opponents. In other words, tell us why your opponent's arguments failed and yours succeeded, and not about the many harms they committed against you.Hi Calypsis4. Dragonflies? Well, this is pretty simple. See you tomorrow. You can post your summation then.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director