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Author Topic:   Questions about the living cell
SammyJean
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 87
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 03-28-2009


Message 151 of 182 (529259)
10-08-2009 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by NosyNed
10-08-2009 5:15 PM


Re: Not the symbol?
The word use in the bible is the Greek word "stauros" the Greek translation of the word in the forth and fifth centuries before Jesus means an upright stake.
The stauros of Christ is important in representing the sacrifice he made for our sins. But was it in the shape of a traditional Christian cross?
The traditional 'cross' was not even used as a Christian symbol until the second century. Why not?
Nowhere do I see god declare the 'cross' as a symbol that represents him.
--------
PS:This is just my early training as a JW coming through.


"Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts." -Albert Einstein

"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief."
~ Gerry Spence


This message is a reply to:
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 516 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(2)
Message 152 of 182 (529261)
10-08-2009 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Calypsis4
10-08-2009 1:14 PM


Re: Pentagrams and pentagons
Calypsis writes:

You can't dispel the truth. That's the way God made Laminin and when it is diagrammed it always looks like

You can diagram it any way you want but does that make it any more true?

I think the creationists own "Answer's in Genesis" says it best:

AIG writes:

While I appreciate Mr. Giglioís passion for the Word, I would suggest that this type of argument is not a good one to use. (See Godís Pharmacy for a similar example.) The main problem with this type of argument is that it appears that something outside of Scripture (in this case, laminin) is vital to know the truthfulness of a biblical truth. Laminin is used to prove a biblical truth. However, we should never use our fallible, finite understanding of the world to judge the infallible Word of God. What we observe in the world can certainly be used to confirm Godís Word (and it does), but our finite observations are not in a position to evaluate the infinite things of God. Only if we start with the Bible as our ultimate standard can we have a worldview that is rational and makes sense of the evidence (see Atheism: An Irrational Worldview and Evolution: The Anti-science).

The structure of laminin was not made popular until 2008, yet I have no doubt that many Christians before that time have trusted the truth presented in Colossians 1:17 because it is Godís Word. Would Colossians 1:17 be any less true if laminin were not in the shape of a cross? No. If five years from now we discover that the laminin protein actually has a different shape (in fact, some electron micrographs of the protein do not resemble a cross at all, see here, p. 149), would that change the truth found in Colossians 1:17? No, because our belief in the truthfulness that Christ holds all things together should start and end with Godís Word alone!

Or are you going to argue now against your own creationist sources?


"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Calypsis4, posted 10-09-2009 9:03 AM DevilsAdvocate has acknowledged this reply

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 516 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 153 of 182 (529284)
10-08-2009 6:20 PM


Potassium channel in the shape of a swastica present in our brains.

BTW, just like the shape of the cross, the shape of the swastica is far older than that adopted by later cultures.


"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Calypsis4, posted 10-09-2009 9:02 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

  
Briterican
Member (Idle past 1363 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


(1)
Message 154 of 182 (529289)
10-08-2009 6:33 PM


a cross is.. um... a very simple shape
When the debris settled on Ground Zero, it was found that two pieces of mangled girder still stood in the shape of a cross, and much wondering comment resulted. Since all architecture has always involved crossbeams, it would be surprising only if such a feature did not emerge. I admit that I would have been impressed if the wreckage had formed itself into a Star of David or a star or crescent, but there is no record of this ever having occurred anywhere, even in places where local people might have been impressed by it.

- Christopher Hitchens
    
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 2628 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 155 of 182 (529396)
10-09-2009 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by DevilsAdvocate
10-08-2009 6:20 PM


BTW, just like the shape of the cross, the shape of the swastica is far older than that adopted by later cultures

You think THAT looks like a swastica? Nope.

Even so, even if it did, where is an ancient text believed by millions that tells us that the 'swastica' is the symbol of some 'god' that holds all things together?

Neither you nor your unbeleiving comrades will escape the truth of this matter no matter how hard you try.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 10-08-2009 6:20 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Dr Jack, posted 10-09-2009 9:21 AM Calypsis4 has responded
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 2628 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 156 of 182 (529397)
10-09-2009 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by DevilsAdvocate
10-08-2009 5:49 PM


Re: Pentagrams and pentagons
AIG: "While I appreciate Mr. Giglioís passion for the Word, I would suggest that this type of argument is not a good one to use"

AIG is wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 10-08-2009 5:49 PM DevilsAdvocate has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Huntard
Member
Posts: 2856
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(2)
Message 157 of 182 (529401)
10-09-2009 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Calypsis4
10-09-2009 9:03 AM


Re: Pentagrams and pentagons
Calypsis4 writes:

AIG is wrong.


No, you are!

Constructive debating for the win!


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3500
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


(3)
Message 158 of 182 (529406)
10-09-2009 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Calypsis4
10-09-2009 9:02 AM


Methanol! The sign of the LORD
Doesn't look much like a cross to me.

This molecule:

  H
|
H-C-H
|
O
|
H

looks far more like a cross. It's methanol.

So far we've found your cross in a molecule vital to the formation and propagation and a substance of which washed up drunks are particularly fond. Where else does the LORD promote his existence? Should we be looking for in syphilis? Or in hemorrhoids?

Or, perhaps, should be vaguely sensible and dismiss this as the silliness it is?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Calypsis4, posted 10-09-2009 9:02 AM Calypsis4 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Calypsis4, posted 10-09-2009 9:32 AM Dr Jack has responded

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 2628 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 159 of 182 (529413)
10-09-2009 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Dr Jack
10-09-2009 9:21 AM


Re: Methanol! The sign of the LORD
You're still missing the point. Like your comrades you don't WISH to get the point:

Science tells us: "The trimeric proteins form a CROSS, giving a structure that can bind to other cell membrane and extracellular matrix molecules."M. A. Haralson and John R. Hassell (1995). Extracellular matrix: a practical approach. Ithaca, N.Y: IRL Press. ISBN 0-19-963220-0. They were not 'talking religion'. They were scientists making an observation.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Dr Jack, posted 10-09-2009 9:37 AM Calypsis4 has responded
 Message 161 by Dr Jack, posted 10-09-2009 9:43 AM Calypsis4 has not yet responded
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3500
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


(3)
Message 160 of 182 (529418)
10-09-2009 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Calypsis4
10-09-2009 9:32 AM


Re: Methanol! The sign of the LORD
So you accept that methanol is also the sign of the LORD, as well as the protein critical to cancer that you're so fond of?

Yes, it looks a bit like a cross, although as demonstrated by the actual pictures earlier in this thread, it doesn't look very like a cross. It's the notion that this transparently fragile connection means anything that is absurd.

Also I note that quote you're fond of throwing around is on the wikipedia page on Laminins, referenced to the book you're citing it as a quote from. Have you read the book? Or are you merely reciting from the wikipedia page and misattributing it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Calypsis4, posted 10-09-2009 9:32 AM Calypsis4 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3500
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


(2)
Message 161 of 182 (529420)
10-09-2009 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Calypsis4
10-09-2009 9:32 AM


Lying with citations again
calpysis4 writes:

Science tells us: "The trimeric proteins form a CROSS, giving a structure that can bind to other cell membrane and extracellular matrix molecules."M. A. Haralson and John R. Hassell (1995). Extracellular matrix: a practical approach. Ithaca, N.Y: IRL Press. ISBN 0-19-963220-0. They were not 'talking religion'. They were scientists making an observation.

Ah, yes, this line does not appear in that book.

So, in fact, as I suspected you've quoted from Wikipedia and misattributed it to Haralson and Hassell. Tut, tut, tut. So are you being deliberately dishonest? Or do you just not have a clue?

Edited by Mr Jack, : -ed


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Calypsis4, posted 10-09-2009 9:32 AM Calypsis4 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Izanagi
Member (Idle past 2631 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


(3)
Message 162 of 182 (529425)
10-09-2009 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Calypsis4
10-09-2009 9:32 AM


Re: Methanol! The sign of the LORD
It wouldn't matter if it looked like Mickey Mouse, you bypassed the natural explanations and went to using Scripture to support it as if it had predicted the laminin and its shape all along.

If you believe that the Bible made the prediction of the shape of the laminin and its location, then produce an instance where a creationist "scientist" used Scripture to make a prediction about what we could find in a cell, did research, and produced his findings that it was right where Scripture said it would be.

This should be quite possible because you have consistently held to the belief that the Bible is a resource for scientific research. If you are right, show us.

Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.

Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Calypsis4, posted 10-09-2009 9:32 AM Calypsis4 has not yet responded

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3500
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


(2)
Message 163 of 182 (529433)
10-09-2009 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Calypsis4
10-08-2009 1:14 PM


Re: Pentagrams and pentagons
You can't dispel the truth. That's the way God made Laminin and when it is diagrammed it always looks like:

Gosh! You can use Google image search. Love the way you omitted the ones that don't support your view.

As for the fact that Laminin can degenerate (cancer), so what?

That's not what I said. Laminins are key in the formation and propogation of cancer. They do not "degenerate" to do this. Your little "crosses" carry right on in their usual form.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Calypsis4, posted 10-08-2009 1:14 PM Calypsis4 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 2628 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 164 of 182 (529434)
10-09-2009 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Dr Jack
10-09-2009 9:37 AM


Re: Methanol! The sign of the LORD
Yes, it looks a bit like a cross, although as demonstrated by the actual pictures earlier in this thread, it doesn't look very like a cross

That conclusion was not mine but secular scientists. It doesn't look a 'bit' like a cross. Stop being dishonest. They said it correctly but you don't like it.

I have nothing to say about the methanol. What point is there? The point I've made from the beginning is that there is an ancient text that tells us that the One who died on the cross 'holds all thing' together (Colossians) and 'it just to happens' that Laminin is (when diagramed) in the shape of the cross. The fact that in its function it bends and twists to other shapes is unimportant.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 2628 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 165 of 182 (529436)
10-09-2009 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Dr Jack
10-09-2009 10:33 AM


Re: Pentagrams and pentagons
Laminins are key in the formation and propogation of cancer. They do not "degenerate" to do this. Your little "crosses" carry right on in their usual form.

Mocker. I am going to avoid you from now on.

The very reason for sickness and disease in our world to begin with is because of human sin. Our sins are the reason why Jesus died on the cross to begin with. The cross is a picture of God's hatred for human sin in the first place. Jesus suffered in our place for all we've done wrong. So why would the fact that Laminin is subject to disease of any kind detract from the eternal truth that God gave us about the matter.


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