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Author | Topic: Obama is full of it | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Hi jacortina,
There's simply no question whatsoever that the whole idea and the whole impetus behind the thing was Little Richie Daley, wanting one BIG thing to outdo his old man. Nevertheless, Obama should not have promoted the games in Chicago given the disastrous impact those games would have caused the city and it's residents to endure. Here are some quotes from an article on: zmag.org quote: Whether it's for prestige (like Reagan and Clinton), whether it's to return a favor to connected people in Chicago who helped him, whether it's to support the Daley machine... the fact is that the city and it's residents would have suffered the most AND THAT should have been the biggest concern of both Obama and the party that opposes him. But instead, the media (both left and right) focused on the corruption rather than on the people who will actually suffer the most. They lost focus on what would really hurt if the games came to Chicago and instead used it as an opportunity to endorse their agenda. They used it as an excuse to promote hate toward Obama and the Democratic party, but only to make way for their party of interest, and not because they were trully concerned. Typical media misinformation coupled with propaganda for an equally corrupt party. What about the impact those games would have had on the city and it's residents? Shouldn't Obama have been concerned with that? - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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Chicago was going to push for it, no matter what Obama did or didn't do to help (there is NO Republican Party to speak of in Chicago and not much more of one in Illinois as a whole). Had he done nothing, he would have been vilified for 'not supporting America'. That is a fair point to consider. As president, his support of a US bidding is almost a mandatory thing. And I agree that the decision for Chicago was done long before Obama's campaign for presidency. It was the same when the games were in Los Angeles and Reagan was president. His connections to LA were no secert (having been an actor) so one could apply the same ignorance that others are appling to Obama and say that Reagans support of the LA games was to benefit his connections. Which is technically right, but not in the sense that people make it to seem. However, when a city and it's residents stand to lose so much, perhaps the approach Obama should have taken (and I say this recognizing that my opinion is of little value in the matter) should have been to point out the negative effects the games would have had on the city, but endores the bidding as any other president would have. Even though, IMO, the negative effects, especially during a struggling economy, should have outweighed the tradition of bidding for the Olympic games. Interestingly enough, I think such a stance would have made him look better than supporting the games. It would have shown people (even if it was illusionary) that his concerns are for the welfare of the people, and not for the interests of the powerful corporations that stood to gain the most from the games. Fact is, the games really only benefit a small minority of powerful corporations (media, advertisers, corporate affiliates, etc.) financially. But since the presidents has always been members of the elite class of society (with connections to all these major interest groups), it makes sense to support their own ilk... regardless of the impact it has on the people. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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I stick by my initial statement, in saying if that was Bush, it would have been portrayed by the liberal media completely differently. Just like they did with the whole oil issue. Bush owns oil, so it must be his fault approach. While I agree that the "liberal" media (*which is an oxymoron) would have spun things the other way had Bush done something similar, the current spin from the right-wing media is only to gain momentum for their party of interest - which is as corrupt as the current party. In either case, the people get screwed due to political jockeying for control and power. * All media in this country is owned by a major corporations, and the affiliations to the different parties (Dem - Rep) is used as a tool for propaganda and to push specific agendas. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
And oh, it took 4 months to pick a dog. - That was funny!
I am still waiting patiently for things to get better, after all it took 8 years to screw it all up right?? I wouldn't wait for the government to do this; we need to make things right for ourselves. McCain would have shit the bed as well. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Our current economic status is completely the American public's fault. Completely the American public's fault? Hmm, that's interesting. How so? Can you be specific?
A reason for socialist countries to say "see look, it doesn't work". Capitalism doesn't work. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
We can speculate, certainly, but we cannot determine for a certainty because Chicago did not get the bid. The one downside to bidding for the Olympics, IMO, is that during such hard economic times, the money spent by Chicago bidding for the Olympics could have been used directly to help the city. The bid cost Chicago 48.2 million. A bid the lost, mind you. That money could have been used directly to help the people of that city (public housing, schools, healthcare, etc.). Instead, it was used to bid for games which would have huge financial gain for developers, etc., and done nothing for the people themselves.
sourcequote: So if in fact, the games were supposed to "help the people of Chicago," then why not just invest the almost 50 million directly into the system and avoid the HUGE possibility of not winning the bid? IMO, the games were not to benefit "the people," they were to benefit the elite Chicago business folk. 48.2 million wasted on a bid, while the poor less fortunate in Chicago stay wanting. Obama had nothing to do with the original bid for the games, but he could have stepped up and gave his concerns for the money wasted. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I don't know what they were doing, but such frivolous overkill would have a negative impression on me, if I was on the receiving end of the "bid". Same here. And we're not alone. Here's an article if you'd like to check it out, from ESPN Chicago, a mainstream news source, reporting the same thing.
quote: - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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Hi Dronester,
In a time of economic recession and health care crisis, this war is costing $2 billion EACH MONTH. Obama is not ending the Afghan war, he is ESCALATING it. Obama went ahead and boosted U.S. troop levels in Afghanistan by 17,000 this past Spring. An additional 40,000 troops will now be added. With undoubtedly more in the future when this surge also doesn't change things (Vietnam anyone?). Both Dem and Repub Administrations know that the art of "escalation of war mongering" needs to be done quietly and incrementally or an apathetic public just may react. The part that continues to bother me, is that no one is paying any attention to what the Afghan people want! This is baffling. It's a lot about US and British concerns, and it's obvious in both Obama's and Brown's speeches on the subject. Neither of them ends their talks with, "Oh yea, and the Afghan people don't fuck'n want us there." That, and that alone, is reason to get the hell out of there. But you're right, it is war mongering, and done very under the radar with promises that it would be a more meritorious war in Afghanistan. Lies, and more lies. And all the while, the people in Afghanistan want us out. So much so, that they are now willing to negotiate with the Taliban and to creation of a coalition government that will include the Taliban leadership. So what's the fucking point of staying in there?
sourcequote: Why though? Why are they determined to "acheive military victory" when the people, the civilians of that country, have stated what they want? This is an example of war mongering at it's finest, further continued now by the Obama Admin.
I said before, Obama is gonna keep to a muddled strategy with continuing civilian deaths that will only create more terrorists against Amerika. Who STILL disagrees with this? To the point that they have now given one of the terrorist organization that the US set out to destroy a seat on the new Afghan government. Shall we pause for an applause break now? - Oni
Lastly, Oni, NYC is a bit far from Buffalo. Ever do shows in Toronto? I love Toronto. Certainly the best thing about living in Buffalo is that TO is just an hour or two drive away. I do make it to Canada ever now and again, not TO, but close. When I do I will definitely hit you up!
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
A reason for socialist countries to say "see look, it doesn't work". Ah there's that scary word. Americans should freak out when they hear "socialism"! You like presenting videos, check out this one. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Hi Hyro,
Why then is it morally acceptable when Obama does it, but not Bush? I don't think anyone has said that it's morally OK for Obama to do it. Not to defend Obama, but I don't think he ordered the bombing of Pakistan since they started before he took office (in fact, it started way back in 2006 - as far as I've been able to research it). Sure, it's under his watch NOW, but it's not comparable to the invasion of Iraq by US military forces, and equally in Afghanistan, ordered directly by Bush Jr. himself.
but not a peep for Obama who has taken up his mantle. There have been many protesters, but, currently we are in a pro-US politics media frenzy so it wouldn't be good for US foreign policy to show anti-Obama campaigns. Likewise, what the right-wing media is doing with their exaggerated stories is not helping either, because then it becomes a finger pointing argument, and nothing gets accomplished. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
all I have to go by is what we see on TV And let me stop you right there. I will answer your post in more detail in a few hours, but for now just take a look at the actual polls from Kabul, Afghan:
source quote: (The highlighted portion and bold emphasis is the most shocking part) The Afghans not only want the US and British forces out, the also don't want an increase in military forces and are now, due to our prolonged invasion, willing to negotiate with the Taliban and allow them a place in the new government. The US and Britain had intended to rid Afghanistan of the Taliban, but all they did was make them part of the government. I'll answer the rest shortly, RR. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Why are they on the decline? Is that because the Taliban is on the incline? People are scared for their lives. In a country where you die just for talking to us, I would suspect the numbers to be on the decline. They will come to your village, kill you, rape the women, and hurt the children. How can you guys support this kind of behavior?
You're right. We should just drop a bomb on the whole area and get rid of the Taliban... and the women and children, too. That way, no one can hurt them again.
Couple that with their past history of aggression towards us, we have no choice but to be involved there. Do you mean the same history that involves the US helping train Bin Laden and giving rise to the Taliban so they could fight the Russians? - Or should we ignore that part of their history?
Why is it that we have PETA to protect the fish from getting hurt, but we can't protect basic human rights?
PETA is not a government organization, they're a private group of nut-jobs who use media hype to promote their particular brand of "animal rights." - (While I don't agree with their tactics, I do respect their efforts.)
Don't hurt the fish.....screw the Afghanistan women and children Save a tree......kill a baby. You don't seem to understand that the US involvement in Afghanistan has given the Taliban an equal position in the (soon to be) *new* government in Afghanistan. It's the US's fault (I should be specific and say, Bush's fault) that the Taliban has risen to political status in that country. They didn't have it before we invaded, now the people are willing to allow them a position in the *new* government. How does that sound to you, RR?
There is no consistency in liberal minded thinkers, and no logic. All I see is hypocrites.
Close minded people usually see things their way and their way only... - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given. Edited by onifre, : No reason given. Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Please, if we train ppl to defend themselves, and then they use it for wrong purposes, the blame rest solely on them. But aren't they in fact "defending themselves" when they retaliate against a US invasion? You can't pick and choose who they should consider a threat. If they feel they're being invaded by what they would call an "imperialist nation," then it should be understood that they're actions are not "acts of terrorism," rather, they are acts of self defense.
That same group of nuts are most likely tree huggers, and anti-war type people. How is being concerned with the environment and not supporting violence a bad thing? You used euphamisms like "tree huggers" and "anti-war-type people," but essentially you're talking about people with environmental concerns and people who don't advocate war to solve issues. We should ALL be like that. Why do you disagree with that and mock it?
That is just not true. The Taliban was in power, and were giving safe harbor to Al-Queda, and when the ISAF invaded it was 64,500 troops and 42 countries involved. Not "Bush". I will never forget. You're missing a key factor: All the while, the people were against the Taliban's control, yet now, due to our invasion and prolonged occupation, the people have changed their opinion of the Taliban. They now want to resolve the fighting (which they always did), get rid of the US presence in their country and are willing to allow the Taliban a place in the newly reformed government. That wasn't the case prior to the US lead invasion and prolonged occupation - that has done nothing to help that country, and has only increased the violence. It's also important to remember that the US supported the Taliban and Al-Qaeda by selling them weapons and recruiting radical soldiers to fight the Russians in the 80's.
sourcequote: We create the monsters, then get upset when they turn on us. It's sad and pathetic. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
I found this letter to Obama to be a very good read. It really hits at the heart of the issue IMO.
(Jazzns, Izagani, Hyro, Dronester) Thought you guys who are debating the Israel/Palestinian conflict might enjoy reading it the most.
quote: My favorite line: "Billions of people in the world are ready to carry you on the crest of a tsunami, if you would only give us more than words. Perhaps from where you stand Mr President you don't hear how hollow they sound." - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2950 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
But they are not doing that, they are taking our training and using it to violate basic human rights. The rest of the world probably agrees, as you can read in the links provided. They are terrorizing their own people. Fair point, RR. And I don't disagree that the Taliban and Al Qaeda are a horrible group that must be shut down. But sadly, they are this way (and were this way) before, during and after US support. The weapons that they are using to hurt the people of Afghanistan were sold to them by the US. They exist due to our support. And the US knew what type of group they were but at the time they were beneficial. Well you can't have it both ways. You can't support a monster, supply it weapons and then question why they are commit horrific acts on their own people. While the US backed them and supplied them weapons, they were doing the same thing to the citizens of Afghanistan. The US turned a blind eye to them torturing citizens because we were using the Taliban and Al Qaeda to fight the Soviets. Now it's a human rights issue? It was ALWAYS a human rights issue but no one cared.
I have yet to read that anywhere, or see that on TV. I supplied you with the link to the actual numbers several times. From Message 73quote: 64% of Afghans thought "the government in Kabul should negotiate a settlement with Afghan Taliban in which they are allowed to hold political offices."
I can't believe that people who so vigorously speak out against radicals seem to be supporting them now. I can't either. But the US has much to do for the people's change of opinion toward the Taliban. The prolonged fighting and occupation of that land by US and British forces has made these poor people break, and give in to the Taliban, if only to have the fighting stop and some peace back in their lives. Can you blame them? - Oni
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