Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 113 (8790 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-24-2017 2:53 AM
352 online now:
DrJones*, dwise1, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), PaulK, Tangle (5 members, 347 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Porkncheese
Upcoming Birthdays: Tempe 12ft Chicken
Post Volume:
Total: 819,341 Year: 23,947/21,208 Month: 1,912/2,468 Week: 5/416 Day: 5/24 Hour: 0/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12
3
456
...
12Next
Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Stile
Member
Posts: 2964
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 31 of 166 (797333)
01-17-2017 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
01-16-2017 12:41 PM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:

I believe that all people do not want the same thing...except in that it be their own thing

I can't even agree to that

There are some people who definitely do not want "their own thing." Have you ever heard of people being "submissive?" Sometimes, this gets to the point where certain people don't want to make any decisions for themselves whatsoever... they want someone else (God even, if He'd do the job) make every decision for them.

Other people spend their entire lives searching for the way not to "want" anything at all (certain Monks and Eastern religions).

You can keep trying to come up with a single idea that works for everyone... it's rather easy for me to come up with people who do not fit the mold

Even my idea about "everyone wanting peace" is not something that everyone wants.
Some people want to hurt others, take things away from others, exalt themselves over others. I just have no moral problem sticking such people in jail or otherwise not allowing them to partake in "general society" with the rest of us who "want peace."

All people may well need the same thing.

This depends on what you mean

Like we both agree, all people need food, water, shelter.
And "mental health."

The issue is that you seem to think that "mental health" can be narrowed down to a single, specific idea that would work for everyone if they just let it. (Example: believing in God.)

My idea is that there is no single, specific idea that works for everyone, and we should acknowledge that people are different, and therefore have different mental-health needs.

You seem to be able to understand that people are different... but then refuse to accept that these differences might cause them to have different needs.

Then you offer single solutions that work for "many" (more like "some").
And when continuously countered with factual people who certainly do not accept such solutions... what do you do then?

Are they lying?
Is this a huge conspiracy against Christianity?
Is it possible that they really, sincerely, simply want something different? Simply need something different?

We are taught that many will seek the broad path and few will find the narrow path.

I fully agree with this statement.
I also think that if you're trying to sway everyone to any single narrow path... you're going to make many miss theirs entirely. You'd be doing more damage than good.

The whole analogy of many mountains, many paths sounds a bit like pantheism to me...

Could be. But just because others are allowed to follow different paths, doesn't mean you have to follow them, or even believe in them, or believe in anything other than your own path. It simply means you don't try to force your way onto others. If your way is so amazing, they will see it for themselves in time anyway. If they have better results elsewhere... why would you want that to be taken away from them? If someone else thought they were having better results than you, would you be okay with them taking away all your beliefs? Try to think of other people as equals, with equal opportunity to make their own choices based on their own personal experiences - same as you have.

As far as our willingness to accept Him should He knock, I can only respond by quoting Paul.

Rom 3:10-18 ...

Perhaps Paul felt that everyone needed to believe as he did.

Maybe. Sounds to me like Paul never spent any time with a happy child

But, seriously, it sounds to me like that passage should have some context around it. Sounds like half-of-something for some point someone's trying to make. Without the rest of the context, though... I can't make further comment.

For one thing, there are many people who honestly and openly seek God and simply have never found Him. Paul can say otherwise all he wants, just as he can say water isn't wet or that the sun isn't bright. Saying things that are false does not change reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 01-16-2017 12:41 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 01-18-2017 11:25 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 32 of 166 (797355)
01-18-2017 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Stile
01-17-2017 11:16 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
If your way is so amazing, they will see it for themselves in time anyway.
True.

For one thing, there are many people who honestly and openly seek God and simply have never found Him.
Again, true. I personally believe that God finds us...we don't find Him unless we are making Him up.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Stile, posted 01-17-2017 11:16 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 01-19-2017 11:34 AM Phat has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 33 of 166 (797371)
01-19-2017 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
10-06-2009 9:53 AM


Stile writes:

I became an atheist when I realized that there's nothing unique about the benefits I was getting through my honest efforts towards God and religion.

I might suggest that by looking for benefits you were actually turning away from God. The Christianity that Jesus espouses in the Gospels is about not asking how you can be benefited but about how you can benefit others.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stile, posted 10-06-2009 9:53 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Stile, posted 01-19-2017 8:54 AM GDR has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 2964
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 34 of 166 (797377)
01-19-2017 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by GDR
01-19-2017 1:49 AM


GDR writes:

I might suggest that by looking for benefits you were actually turning away from God.

Understood. Perhaps my phrasing wasn't as clear as it could have been.

First off: I was also not looking for benefits.

The Christianity that Jesus espouses in the Gospels is about not asking how you can be benefited but about how you can benefit others.

My personal philosophy is very similar.
My point is this:

The results of "the Christianity that Jesus espouses in the Gospels is about not asking how you can be benefited but about how you can benefit others" are exactly the same as simply "living by not asking how you can be benefited but about how you can benefit others."

Same idea, just removing the context of Christianity, Jesus, God and religion.

I realized that the context of Christianity, Jesus, God and religion didn't add anything to the actual idea of "living a good life and helping others."

In general:
The lives Christians lead are not better than the lives non-Christians lead.
The people Christians help are not helped better than people non-Christians help.

This realization is what led me to become an atheist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by GDR, posted 01-19-2017 1:49 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by GDR, posted 01-21-2017 7:25 PM Stile has responded
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 01-22-2017 8:28 AM Stile has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 35 of 166 (797389)
01-19-2017 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
01-18-2017 11:25 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:

I personally believe that God finds us...


You sound like a Calvinist. Maybe there are some of us that God isn't looking for?

Phat writes:

...we don't find Him unless we are making Him up.


I agree completely.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 01-18-2017 11:25 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 01-21-2017 4:36 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 36 of 166 (797456)
01-21-2017 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
01-19-2017 11:34 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Maybe there are some of us that God isn't looking for?
Possible, though I believe that everyone deserves an opportunity. And why wouldn't God love everybody? Im struggling to avoid making this up....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 01-19-2017 11:34 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 01-23-2017 10:57 AM Phat has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 37 of 166 (797468)
01-21-2017 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Stile
01-19-2017 8:54 AM


Stile writes:

My personal philosophy is very similar.
My point is this:

The results of "the Christianity that Jesus espouses in the Gospels is about not asking how you can be benefited but about how you can benefit others" are exactly the same as simply "living by not asking how you can be benefited but about how you can benefit others."

Same idea, just removing the context of Christianity, Jesus, God and religion.

Sure, but that doesn't give evidence one way or the other about the basic truth of the Christian faith. I would point out though, that view is more prevalent in a society that has a Judeo Christian root amongst people with all sorts of beliefs including atheists.

Stile writes:

The lives Christians lead are not better than the lives non-Christians lead.

I function in both environments and my experience doesn't reflect that. For example, in my Christian environment we are sponsoring several refugee families and in my secular environment there is more concern about problems they might cause when they get here and would rather we weren't doing it all.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Stile, posted 01-19-2017 8:54 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Stile, posted 01-22-2017 10:28 AM GDR has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 38 of 166 (797482)
01-22-2017 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
01-16-2017 11:06 AM


One Top Many Paths
Phat writes:

there may be many paths up the mountain but they all lead to the same top.


ringo writes:

Are we going up the mountain or down?

Good point. From Jesus perspective, He alone is at the top. As He looks down He sees many paths leading to many people. Thus, Stiles point about everyone being unique fits the analogy.

I believe that God finds us. He will travel the path that uniquely reaches you. You will, however, have to accept Him for Who He is and not for whom you want Him to be. Or not.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 01-16-2017 11:06 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 01-23-2017 10:58 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 39 of 166 (797483)
01-22-2017 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Stile
01-19-2017 8:54 AM


IF Stile met Jesus
Stile writes:

Same idea, just removing the context of Christianity, Jesus, God and religion.

The question in my mind is whether you would accept Him on His terms or whether you would reject Him on your terms. You seem to say that you have found what is best for you but He may want you to accept what He thinks is best for you rather than what you personally feel more comfortable with.

Just a thought.

And by the way, when I say "His terms" I mean His personally and not what religion tells you to think.

Keep hypothetical with me, here


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Stile, posted 01-19-2017 8:54 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Stile, posted 01-22-2017 10:38 AM Phat has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2964
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 40 of 166 (797490)
01-22-2017 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by GDR
01-21-2017 7:25 PM


GDR writes:

Sure, but that doesn't give evidence one way or the other about the basic truth of the Christian faith.

No, it doesn't.
I also wasn't attempting to do any such thing.

I would point out though, that view is more prevalent in a society that has a Judeo Christian root amongst people with all sorts of beliefs including atheists.

Are you sure about that?
I got my ideas mostly from Eastern religions, really.

I function in both environments and my experience doesn't reflect that. For example, in my Christian environment we are sponsoring several refugee families and in my secular environment there is more concern about problems they might cause when they get here and would rather we weren't doing it all.

The idea that one person, who is a Christian, thinks Christianity is the better... fits exactly with the idea I'm trying to describe.

My personal experience is different from yours.
My personal experience being different also fits exactly with my idea.

How does it fit in with yours? Am I lying? Am I mistaken? Is it impossible for some-certain group of atheists to be nicer than some-certain group of Christians? Are such 'Christians' not really Christians, so it doesn't count in your opinion? Are nice, helpful 'atheists' not really atheists in your opinion?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by GDR, posted 01-21-2017 7:25 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by GDR, posted 01-25-2017 7:55 PM Stile has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 2964
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 41 of 166 (797492)
01-22-2017 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Phat
01-22-2017 8:28 AM


Re: IF Stile met Jesus
Phat writes:

The question in my mind is whether you would accept Him on His terms or whether you would reject Him on your terms.

That depends on what you're trying to say.

What are my terms?
What are His?

I can tell you that if God was good and helpful and awesome, I'd accept Him without issue.
I can also tell you that if God is powerful enough to stop little girls from being raped... yet He allows it to continue... I would not accept Him.

You seem to say that you have found what is best for you but He may want you to accept what He thinks is best for you rather than what you personally feel more comfortable with.

A possibility, for sure.
Again, taking extremely serious events with very harmful consequences... if God wants me to be "okay" with allowing people to rape little girls... I'm just not going to do that.

If God wants me to be "okay" with helping other people live the best lives we can, I'll certainly get on board.

And by the way, when I say "His terms" I mean His personally and not what religion tells you to think.

This statement doesn't clarify anything for me... I still don't know what you mean by "His terms."

Keep hypothetical with me, here

I consider all discussions involving God to be hypothetical


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 01-22-2017 8:28 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 01-23-2017 4:11 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 42 of 166 (797517)
01-23-2017 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
01-21-2017 4:36 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:

And why wouldn't God love everybody?


You tell me. Why would God torture anybody eternally, even if they supposedly "chose" it? Why would He call that "love"?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 01-21-2017 4:36 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 01-23-2017 4:09 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 43 of 166 (797519)
01-23-2017 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
01-22-2017 8:23 AM


Re: One Top Many Paths
Phat writes:

You will, however, have to accept Him for Who He is and not for whom you want Him to be. Or not.


Why doesn't He do the same for us?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 01-22-2017 8:23 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 01-23-2017 4:06 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 44 of 166 (797538)
01-23-2017 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by ringo
01-23-2017 10:58 AM


Re: One Top Many Paths
Phat writes:

You will, however, have to accept Him(God) for Who He is and not for whom you want Him to be. Or not.


ringo writes:

Why doesn't He do the same for us?

You mean accept us how we are?

Think of the possible or potential implications.

And this assumes that there needs to be someone in charge. I suppose you could argue for anarchy.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 01-23-2017 10:58 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 01-24-2017 10:44 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 45 of 166 (797539)
01-23-2017 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
01-23-2017 10:57 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
ringo writes:

You tell me. Why would God torture anybody eternally, even if they supposedly "chose" it? Why would He call that "love"?

The way I see it, they actually tortured themselves by making bad choices. I suppose you could argue why God won't help them get back on the right path...if indeed you even believe that there is such a thing as a right path.....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 01-23-2017 10:57 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 01-24-2017 10:50 AM Phat has responded

  
Prev12
3
456
...
12Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017