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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Phat
Member
Posts: 9426
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 46 of 166 (797543)
01-23-2017 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Stile
01-22-2017 10:38 AM


Re: IF Stile met Jesus
stile writes:

if God wants me to be "okay" with allowing people to rape little girls... I'm just not going to do that.

If God wants me to be "okay" with helping other people live the best lives we can, I'll certainly get on board.

Perhaps your answers are indicative of the possibility that God already lives inside you whether you are aware of it or not. Perhaps He is waiting on all of us to change the world rather than Him having to do it

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Stile, posted 01-22-2017 10:38 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13187
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 47 of 166 (797594)
01-24-2017 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
01-23-2017 4:06 PM


Re: One Top Many Paths
Phat writes:

You mean accept us how we are?
Think of the possible or potential implications.


What possible or potential implications? For one thing, He could save Himself a lot of hellfire and brimstone.

Phat writes:

And this assumes that there needs to be someone in charge. I suppose you could argue for anarchy.


I would argue that there IS nobody in charge. The main implication of Nobody doing nothing is that things would be exactly as they are.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 01-23-2017 4:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13187
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 48 of 166 (797595)
01-24-2017 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
01-23-2017 4:09 PM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:

The way I see it, they actually tortured themselves by making bad choices.


Who gave them the choices? If somebody gives you a choice between gouging out your eye or chopping off your hand, who is responsible for your pain?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 01-23-2017 4:09 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 01-25-2017 11:53 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9426
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 49 of 166 (797677)
01-25-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by ringo
01-24-2017 10:50 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
If somebody gives you a choice between gouging out your eye or chopping off your hand, who is responsible for your pain?
Bad analogy. God doesn't give us two bad choices.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 01-24-2017 10:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 01-26-2017 10:46 AM Phat has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 50 of 166 (797706)
01-25-2017 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Stile
01-22-2017 10:28 AM


GDR writes:

I would point out though, that view is more prevalent in a society that has a Judeo Christian root amongst people with all sorts of beliefs including atheists.

Stile writes:

Are you sure about that?
I got my ideas mostly from Eastern religions, really.

Sure, but like I said the society, Canada, does have a Judeo Christian root regardless of where your specific ideas have come from.

Stile writes:

The idea that one person, who is a Christian, thinks Christianity is the better... fits exactly with the idea I'm trying to describe.

My personal experience is different from yours.
My personal experience being different also fits exactly with my idea.

I did point that my own view was anecdotal, but I did give an actual example in the case of dealing with refugees. Nearly all of the money raised in the area has come from various Christian communities and the same is true, although again not completely, for the time spent helping them. The first group that came was Muslim.

Stile writes:

How does it fit in with yours? Am I lying? Am I mistaken? Is it impossible for some-certain group of atheists to be nicer than some-certain group of Christians? Are such 'Christians' not really Christians, so it doesn't count in your opinion? Are nice, helpful 'atheists' not really atheists in your opinion?

My being Christian does not at all mean that I am going to be "nicer or more self sacrificing" than the atheist next door, but it should mean that I am more that way than I had been before. I'd suggest that if Christianity doesn't make a change in someone's life then they have simply given intellectual ascent to Christianity but have not committed themselves to what it is they say they believe. However, they still would be Christians.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Stile, posted 01-22-2017 10:28 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Stile, posted 01-26-2017 9:48 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 2896
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 51 of 166 (797743)
01-26-2017 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by GDR
01-25-2017 7:55 PM


GDR writes:

Sure, but like I said the society, Canada, does have a Judeo Christian root regardless of where your specific ideas have come from.

Oh, you just mean to say that Canada has Judeo Christian roots? Then I completely agree. I thought you were trying to say my personal ideas were more prevalent in a society that has Judeo Christian roots... which is not correct, my personal ideas are more prevalent in areas where the roots have more to do with Eastern religions.

GDR writes:

My being Christian does not at all mean that I am going to be "nicer or more self sacrificing" than the atheist next door, but it should mean that I am more that way than I had been before.

And this is the point I'm making.

Christianity helped you be more than you were before.
Christianity doesn't help me be more than I was before.
Christianity doesn't help everyone be more than they were before.

Atheism helped me be more than I was before.
Atheism doesn't help you be more than you were before.
Atheism doesn't help everyone be more than they were before.

Christianity is "special" in the sense that it helped you, personally.
Atheism is "special" in the sense that it helped me, personally.

But Christianity is "not special" in some sense that it could help everyone in the same way... I am living proof that it's not capable of such a thing.
Just as Atheism is "not special" in some sense that it could help everyone in the same way... you are living proof that it's not capable of such a thing.

There is no "general benefit" that works for everyone that comes from Christianity.
There is no "general benefit" that works for everyone that comes from Atheism.

There certainly is a "general benefit" that everyone needs... some will get it from Christianity, some will get it from Atheism, most will get it from various other sources.

Everything you've said agrees with this except for your tone.
Every point you make, aligns with what I've stated here... but your tone seems to be that you don't agree with it, that something is 'not right' to you... But every time you attempt to clarify what that is, you just say something more that agrees with the point I'm making. It's confusing.

For example:

I did point that my own view was anecdotal, but I did give an actual example in the case of dealing with refugees. Nearly all of the money raised in the area has come from various Christian communities and the same is true, although again not completely, for the time spent helping them. The first group that came was Muslim.

You seem to want to offer this anecdotal evidence as something that proves some point that doesn't fit exactly with what I'm saying... but this statement doesn't actually go against anything I've described. This anecdotal evidence is expected. I'd be very concerned about my ideas if you didn't have such anecdotal evidence.

I'd suggest that if Christianity doesn't make a change in someone's life then they have simply given intellectual ascent to Christianity but have not committed themselves to what it is they say they believe. However, they still would be Christians.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Are you trying to say it applies to me, or did you intend to touch on some more-general idea?

Christianity does not make a change in my life (for the better, anyway).

But... I do not understand what you mean by "given intellectual ascent to Christianity." Do you mean "aligns with some of the same ideals as Christianity?" Like - being nice to others, not killing, not stealing... that sort of thing? I certainly do accept such things as good ideals and morals to have. But I would never describe it as "giving intellectual ascent to Christianity." In fact, if this is what you're talking about... it would more aptly be described as "Christianity giving intellectual ascent to good, moral principals." Since the ideas can develop independently and/or stand on their own without Christianity, and they certainly existed well before Christianity did. All you have to do is make a personal decision to want to help people instead of hurting people and such ideas flow naturally from there. No mention of Christianity or God required for their derivation.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "have not committed themselves to what it is they say they believe."

I say I believe in love, and doing "good" by which I mean helping others instead of hurting others.
I would also say I have committed myself to such ideas.

I also don't really care what other people call me. I certainly wouldn't describe myself as a Christian, but if someone wanted to call me one anyway... I would accept such a compliment and simply think "...well, it's how they think of nice things, so it's nice. Confusing... but nice."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by GDR, posted 01-25-2017 7:55 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13187
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 52 of 166 (797751)
01-26-2017 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Phat
01-25-2017 11:53 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:

God doesn't give us two bad choices.


Yes He does: an eternity of torture or an eternity of knowing He's torturing somebody else.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 01-25-2017 11:53 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 01-26-2017 1:48 PM ringo has responded
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 10:57 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9426
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 53 of 166 (797763)
01-26-2017 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ringo
01-26-2017 10:46 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
But we have no way to know if he is torturing somebody else!

You at first say you see no evidence of God...thus you are an atheist...but then you claim that if God exists you should have the right to define and dictate His actions and choices as if YOU ran the place!

Why not just hypothetically accept the idea that you have a free choice and that choosing Him doesn't cramp your style! I mean....it seems as if you have a built in stubbornness towards authority!

You want your cake and to eat it too!

Its almost as if you are saying that if GOD does in fact exist, you won't be on board unless he does precisely what you want Him to do.

Thus you see belief as one of two bad choices....given that the idea of unbelievers burning eternally is true.

Of course, based on your older arguments, I conclude that you simply prefer to be the captain of your own ship anyway.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 01-26-2017 10:46 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 01-27-2017 10:44 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13187
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 54 of 166 (797794)
01-27-2017 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
01-26-2017 1:48 PM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:

...but then you claim that if God exists you should have the right to define and dictate His actions and choices as if YOU ran the place!


No. We're talking about the God that YOU define.

Phat writes:

...it seems as if you have a built in stubbornness towards authority!


Why do you keep saying that? I'm only against the authority that YOU define, an authority that isn't worthy of being followed.

Phat writes:

Its almost as if you are saying that if GOD does in fact exist, you won't be on board unless he does precisely what you want Him to do.


Would you go to Wal-Mart and buy something that doesn't do what you want it to?

Phat writes:

I conclude that you simply prefer to be the captain of your own ship anyway.


What benefits are available through YOUR chosen Captain?

I'm just stepping up to do what Nobody Else is doing. I have to build my own ark.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 01-26-2017 1:48 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 11:10 AM ringo has responded
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 11:24 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9426
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 55 of 166 (797795)
01-27-2017 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by ringo
01-26-2017 10:46 AM


A Job experience for ringo
ringo writes:

Noah had to save himself FROM GOD.

I see no evidence of this in the story.

Floods happen. Do you blame God for droughts? Hurricanes? Auto accidents?

But if there was a God who could prevent evil and didn't, he would be the enemy.
Fine. Blame God for not magically making life pain free. Its a silly argument, though.
Phat writes:

God doesn't give us two bad choices.


ringo writes:

Yes He does: an eternity of torture or an eternity of knowing He's torturing somebody else.

So in other words, you are arguing that GOD (specifically as a choice) is a bad choice because GOD is supposedly allowing droughts, hurricanes, and auto accidents to kill people....is that close to your position? Are you basically arguing hypothetically against such a GOD based on (in your opinion, mind you) His unwise use of His own power?

Here is basically how I see your position:
"There is no evidence and thus no such a thing as GOD. Humans are basically responsible to each other for choosing empathy, comfort, and good actions and works towards our fellow man. I argue these issues because I find the concept of GOD illogical and strive to continually point this out."

Pretend that you are in a similar position as Job. Pretend that you are suddenly in an argument with a Being that others tell you is GOD. The Being says the following to you:
"Who are YOU,ringo? Is your brain capable of making the calculations of eventual outcomes that I have made in that I have allowed death and suffering to exist for a reason?

If you could see the evidence that I have concluded, would you think any differently?

It seems one of your main arguments tells Me to butt out of your life and quit frying your "friends"....but if I told you that you would eventually die without Me and that your friends also would perish, would you continue to blame Me for allowing a natural process to work?"

In other words, Gods basic argument would be that people cannot survive for long without Him. What would be your personal response to such a Being, assuming you actually had evidence that He was talking to you?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 01-26-2017 10:46 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 01-27-2017 11:36 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 62 by jar, posted 01-27-2017 1:53 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9426
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 56 of 166 (797797)
01-27-2017 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
01-27-2017 10:44 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:

Its almost as if you are saying that if GOD does in fact exist, you won't be on board unless he does precisely what you want Him to do.


ringo writes:

Would you go to Wal-Mart and buy something that doesn't do what you want it to?

Bad analogy. People will never accept God because He never allows them to simply do what they want to do.(Original Sin hypothesis and analogy)

Phat writes:

I conclude that you simply prefer to be the captain of your own ship anyway.


What benefits are available through YOUR chosen Captain?

I'll have to think of a proper reply...I already know that you would argue that there are no benefits and that my captain is an illusion anyway...so
I'll wait until after your next post.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 01-27-2017 10:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 01-27-2017 12:05 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9426
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 57 of 166 (797799)
01-27-2017 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
01-27-2017 10:44 AM


God by ringos hypothetical definition
ringo writes:

We're talking about the God that YOU define.

Part of the reason is because you--being atheist---have not defined a God of your own.

Be hypothetical. Define a God...make Him the only One and explain the characteristics you would ascribe to Him making Him worthy of worship or of obedience?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 01-27-2017 10:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 01-27-2017 11:39 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13187
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 58 of 166 (797801)
01-27-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
01-27-2017 10:57 AM


Re: A Job experience for ringo
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Noah had to save himself FROM GOD.


I see no evidence of this in the story.
Floods happen.

You... have... got... to... be... kidding.

The story SAYS that God sent the Flood. The story SAYS that Noah built the ark. The story SAYS that everybody who didn't build an ark died.

Phat writes:

Do you blame God for droughts? Hurricanes? Auto accidents?


Do you believe God has any power at all?

Phat writes:

Blame God for not magically making life pain free. Its a silly argument, though.


So explain what's silly about it.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Yes He does: an eternity of torture or an eternity of knowing He's torturing somebody else.


So in other words, you are arguing that GOD (specifically as a choice) is a bad choice because GOD is supposedly allowing droughts, hurricanes, and auto accidents to kill people....is that close to your position?

My position is what I said it is: Choosing between an eternity of torture or an eternity of watching torture is a bad choice.

Phat writes:

Here is basically how I see your position:
"There is no evidence and thus no such a thing as GOD. Humans are basically responsible to each other for choosing empathy, comfort, and good actions and works towards our fellow man. I argue these issues because I find the concept of GOD illogical and strive to continually point this out."


Not quite. More like, "There is no evidence and thus no reason to take 'God' into account. If He exists, He doesn't matter. I argue these issues because YOUR concept of God is illogical and inconsistent."

Phat writes:

Pretend that you are in a similar position as Job. Pretend that you are suddenly in an argument with a Being that others tell you is GOD.


Why would I care what others tell me? Why wouldn't I ask that Being for His credentials just like I ask the gas man when he comes to the door? Why does He sneak around in the bushes as if He was trying to steal the meter instead of reading it?

Phat writes:

It seems one of your main arguments tells Me to butt out of your life and quit frying your "friends"....but if I told you that you would eventually die without Me and that your friends also would perish, would you continue to blame Me for allowing a natural process to work?"


What? He created the ***ing natural process, didn't He? Sure, I'll eventually die and my friends also will perish. Why does He have to add eternal torture to that?

Phat writes:

In other words, Gods basic argument would be that people cannot survive for long without Him.


Who wants to survive "for long"? Why wouldn't a short life without Him be better than a long life with Him?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 10:57 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13187
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 59 of 166 (797803)
01-27-2017 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
01-27-2017 11:24 AM


Re: God by ringos hypothetical definition
Phat writes:

Be hypothetical. Define a God...make Him the only One and explain the characteristics you would ascribe to Him making Him worthy of worship or of obedience?


Any Being that was capable of creating universes would not care about obedience or worship.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 11:24 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 1:18 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13187
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 60 of 166 (797805)
01-27-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
01-27-2017 11:10 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Would you go to Wal-Mart and buy something that doesn't do what you want it to?


Bad analogy. People will never accept God because He never allows them to simply do what they want to do.(Original Sin hypothesis and analogy)

How is it a bad analogy? Why would you choose something that doesn't do what you want it to do?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 11:10 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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