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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 61 of 144 (797815)
01-27-2017 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by ringo
01-27-2017 11:39 AM


Re: God by ringos hypothetical definition
he MAY care about the life in those universes, however

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 01-27-2017 11:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 01-29-2017 1:08 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28433
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 62 of 144 (797820)
01-27-2017 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
01-27-2017 10:57 AM


Re: A Job experience for ringo
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Noah had to save himself FROM GOD.

I see no evidence of this in the story.

Floods happen. Do you blame God for droughts? Hurricanes? Auto accidents?

Phat, sorry but that is simply a dishonest answer. In the story the God character specifically says that he will cause the flood.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 10:57 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 7:05 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 63 of 144 (797830)
01-27-2017 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
01-27-2017 1:53 PM


Re: A Job experience for ringo
In the story the God character specifically says that he will cause the flood.
But Noah trusted God...he was not trying to save himself from God....only from the flood...im sure he prayed while on the boat.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 01-27-2017 1:53 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 01-28-2017 6:44 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28433
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 64 of 144 (797848)
01-28-2017 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
01-27-2017 7:05 PM


Re: A Job experience for ringo
Phat writes:

But Noah trusted God...he was not trying to save himself from God....only from the flood...im sure he prayed while on the boat.

He was trying to save himself from the genocide that the God character was committing.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 7:05 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 01-29-2017 9:48 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9260
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 65 of 144 (797908)
01-29-2017 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
01-28-2017 6:44 AM


Point /Counterpoint
Point/Counterpoint.

You say that the God character was bent on wreaking havoc. I say that the God character was targeting humanity much as Doctors target Cancer. The drug kills many healthy cells also. Noah was a healthy cell, so to speak...but I will argue that God knew that the cure was better than the disease. Whether Noah saw it this way or not is speculation. You guys may say that humans cower in fear over Gods judgments...and I've no reason to disagree. We have to respect the authority, however. One cannot simply stand up and brazenly laugh in His face.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 01-28-2017 6:44 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Tangle, posted 01-29-2017 12:07 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 68 by ringo, posted 01-29-2017 1:13 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 69 by jar, posted 01-29-2017 1:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4408
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 66 of 144 (797916)
01-29-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
01-29-2017 9:48 AM


Re: Point /Counterpoint
Phat writes:

I say that the God character was targeting humanity much as Doctors target Cancer. The drug kills many healthy cells also. Noah was a healthy cell, so to speak...but I will argue that God knew that the cure was better than the disease.

What cure? Noah's progeny - us - turned out to be exactly like the cancer; you know, human. He didn't do anything to change anything - man was still fallen. (In your terms.)

You guys may say that humans cower in fear over Gods judgments...and I've no reason to disagree. We have to respect the authority, however. One cannot simply stand up and brazenly laugh in His face.

No, no, no. You're still seeing this from your own viewpoint. "You guys" - i.e. atheists - do not laugh in god's face, how can they? he doesn't exist. Once again, do you laugh in the face of pixies?

When you talk about what we think or do, just think about how you view elves or fairies. IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 01-29-2017 9:48 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 67 of 144 (797920)
01-29-2017 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
01-27-2017 1:18 PM


Re: God by ringos hypothetical definition
Phat writes:

he MAY care about the life in those universes, however


The question is why WE should care whether or not He cares.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 01-27-2017 1:18 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 68 of 144 (797921)
01-29-2017 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
01-29-2017 9:48 AM


Re: Point /Counterpoint
Phat writes:

I say that the God character was targeting humanity much as Doctors target Cancer.


Once again your Creator of All that is Seen and Unseen is pretty puny. He can't target individual cancer cells?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 01-29-2017 9:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28433
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 69 of 144 (797927)
01-29-2017 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
01-29-2017 9:48 AM


Re: Point /Counterpoint
Phat writes:

Noah was a healthy cell, so to speak...but I will argue that God knew that the cure was better than the disease.

You may make that claim but the fact is that the God character did not agree with you, that the God character went on to say it was a mistake and that he would not do it again, that Noah went and set up a vineyard and that Noah's descendants behaved no differently than all the folk the God character murdered. No in the story is there ever any evidence of any wrong doing by any of the people, animals, plants and other critters killed, only that the God character despaired of creating them.

Phat writes:

You guys may say that humans cower in fear over Gods judgments...and I've no reason to disagree.

Not really Phat, no one but the crazies say that. Honestly all the evidence is that there is nothing to fear from Gods judgement.

Phat writes:

We have to respect the authority, however. One cannot simply stand up and brazenly laugh in His face.

Why do we have to respect authority?

Why can't we stand up and brazenly laugh in His face?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 01-29-2017 9:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4545
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 70 of 144 (798041)
01-30-2017 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
10-06-2009 9:53 AM


Stile writes:

I became an atheist when I realized that there's nothing unique about the benefits I was getting through my honest efforts towards God and religion.

Not sure if I responded to this thread but it seems from reading over it, and your first message, while your opening post says some honest things which I'm fine with, I would say the overall theme is, "what can God do for me", as though God is some type of vendor machine.

God's will is no picnic. Ask Christ, He can vouch for that, for the Father's will was for Him to die on the cross.

In my life God's will has hurt, particularly when there was a time of trial which lasted about 45 days for me, which was probably the hardest thing I have had to deal with in life, a spiritual matter of course, which there is no point in describing to the natural man.

But there is a special benefit to knowing God, which comprises of the gifts of the spirit and the fruit of the spirit. The love of God for example, is an incredible thing to have, and it compels us to do things which we were always meant to do.

But when we look at the world, the Godless world, ultimately it's message, like your opening post, is man-centred. The world doesn't want to deal with things, so you abort (murder), it doesn't want to do the right thing so it re-brands sin. The world's message is to get ahead, step on people, get your own success, and don't bother with God because He is only there to spoil your fun.

So I have to say this, your message is pretty expected, because the flesh only knows the flesh, it does not know selflessness. So perhaps the message should be this in response to your opening message; "FORGET SELF, and follow me." - Jesus Christ.

And you know the cool thing about it? Well God's so smart, you know what He does? He flips the script. As soon as your focus is OFF self, then guess what? The blessing come pouring in!

What an awesome God we have!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stile, posted 10-06-2009 9:53 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Stile, posted 01-30-2017 3:28 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2848
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 71 of 144 (798067)
01-30-2017 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by mike the wiz
01-30-2017 12:54 PM


Can you be more helpful?
mike the wiz writes:

I would say the overall theme is, "what can God do for me", as though God is some type of vendor machine.

I apologize for coming off that way. I intended to come off as saying something more along the lines of "what can God do for me," as though God is some type of benevolent Creator and Protector of all of mankind and the universe and everything.

I am a selfish man.

I want very much to better myself as much as possible.
I want to help others as much as I can.
I want to reduce the amount of hurt I do to others as much as I can.
I want to be happy, and spread happiness as much as I can.
I want to be full of love and spread love to others as much as I can.

If you know of any benefits that would help me do any of those things "better" I would (very selfishly) ask you to share them with me so that I could learn and grow.

But there is a special benefit to knowing God...

Fantastic! Hopefully you could explain it to me.

...which comprises of the gifts of the spirit and the fruit of the spirit. The love of God for example, is an incredible thing to have, and it compels us to do things which we were always meant to do.

Oh. I see.
I already have incredible things, and feelings and experiences.
I do not understand what you mean by "always meant to do." If I was meant to hurt others or anything like that... I do not want to do what I was "meant to do." However, if you mean something along the lines of helping others out as much as possible... this is exactly what I'm interested in... although I am already compelled to do such things, and God does not seem to be required.

Perhaps you could be more specific?
I do not recognize anything here that is not available without God.

world doesn't want to deal with things, so you abort (murder)

Abortion, to me, doesn't seem so simple. In fact, I could just as easily say "mike the wiz doesn't want to deal with things... so he doesn't abort (condemning mothers to care for children that were forced upon them by their rapists)." But I am not here to discuss the pros and cons of abortion in this thread. It might be best if we use some... less polarizing examples, or else we may find ourselves heading far off-topic.

it doesn't want to do the right thing so it re-brands sin

This phrase doesn't mean much of anything to me.
Could you define to me what you mean by "the right thing?"

I want to do the right thing. And I define "the right thing" as that which helps people instead of hurts people.
Do you have a 'better' definition of "the right thing?"
Are you saying that those who believe in God always do the right thing? That doesn't seem to be true...

The world's message is to get ahead, step on people, get your own success, and don't bother with God because He is only there to spoil your fun.

That is not my message.
And I am not a believer in God either.
How does that fit with your model of things?

What is your message? Is it something that provides a way to be a better person that cannot be obtained from anywhere else?

So I have to say this, your message is pretty expected, because the flesh only knows the flesh, it does not know selflessness.

After reading your response, I'm pretty sure you do not understand my message.
My message is about helping others and not hurting others. If you have any improvements on such a message, I would be interested in hearing what you may have to offer, though.

But this thread isn't about what my stance actually is... it's about trying to improve my stance. For that, I need input from you on what your stance is, and what you think is "better." If you would be so kind as to try and help, it would be appreciated.

"FORGET SELF, and follow me." - Jesus Christ.

That seems like a good message. What does "follow me" mean? Does it mean to help people instead of hurt people? I'm already trying to do that as best I can. Perhaps if you could be more specific, we could move on to something with more... content.

And you know the cool thing about it? Well God's so smart, you know what He does? He flips the script. As soon as your focus is OFF self, then guess what? The blessing come pouring in!

What an awesome God we have!

But I do not believe in God, and I already have what others would describe as "blessings."

I have love in my live.
I share love with many friends and family in my life.
I have happy, joyous, amazing times pretty much everyday with those I share life with.
I am very comfortable.
I am able to enjoy giving comfort to others.

What other blessings could possible "pour in?"

That's the point here.
To see if there's something available to those who believe in God that is not available to others.

So far, you haven't mentioned anything. Just some vague generalities here and there.
This seems to imply that you are either unable or unwilling to mention any possible benefits to believing in God.

If you are unable and wish to help others... hopefully the clarifications I've made here will help you be more specific in your future explanations.
If you are unwilling... then I don't see why you are even attempting to post here? A "benefit" from God that includes an un-willingness to help others doesn't seem to be any sort of "benefit" I would want to try and obtain.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by mike the wiz, posted 01-30-2017 12:54 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by GDR, posted 01-30-2017 8:00 PM Stile has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 72 of 144 (798091)
01-30-2017 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Stile
01-30-2017 3:28 PM


Hope this helps
Stile writes:

But... I do not understand what you mean by "given intellectual ascent to Christianity." Do you mean "aligns with some of the same ideals as Christianity?" Like - being nice to others, not killing, not stealing... that sort of thing? I certainly do accept such things as good ideals and morals to have. But I would never describe it as "giving intellectual ascent to Christianity." In fact, if this is what you're talking about... it would more aptly be described as "Christianity giving intellectual ascent to good, moral principals." Since the ideas can develop independently and/or stand on their own without Christianity, and they certainly existed well before Christianity did. All you have to do is make a personal decision to want to help people instead of hurting people and such ideas flow naturally from there. No mention of Christianity or God required for their derivation.


No. What I meant by giving intellectual ascent to Christianity is essentially acknowledging Jesus as Lord with the head but not the heart. I agree that one can take on good moral principles without acknowledging the Christian faith. We would differ on why that it is but that is a matter of belief. I would say that we are only able to live out the moral characteristics you talk about because they flow from God whether we acknowledge Him or not. You obviously would disagree.
I did want to respond to this quote from another post to MTW.
Stile writes:

I want very much to better myself as much as possible.
I want to help others as much as I can.
I want to reduce the amount of hurt I do to others as much as I can.
I want to be happy, and spread happiness as much as I can.
I want to be full of love and spread love to others as much as I can.
If you know of any benefits that would help me do any of those things "better" I would (very selfishly) ask you to share them with me so that I could learn and grow.


There are many aspects to the Christian faith and one of them is aligned with being the type of person that you describe in that quote. The other is that truth matters. In this case I’m talking about what is the truth of the Christian doctrine.

I have two fundamental beliefs that if I couldn’t hold them I would not refer to myself as a Christian. My view is that Christianity hangs on these two beliefs. The first is that God is good, always good and uncompromisingly good. (I’m quite happy with defining “good” in roughly the terms you outlined in your post.) The second is that God resurrected Jesus, into a new type of eternal bodily form after His crucifixion. All of my other Christian beliefs flow from those two fundamental beliefs. If I am wrong then I have nothing to offer in response to your question. As I said, truth matters.

If however I am correct then I can say that as humans and specifically Christians we are called to band together and work co-operatively in order to more effectively love our neighbour, wherever that neighbour happens to live. The “Samaritan” was Christ’s neighbour. Also we are told that our hearts as Christians are more open to that “still small voice of God” or His “Holy Spirit” that touches the hearts of all of us, than we would be otherwise. Again, anecdotally, but that has been my experience which is not to say that I am any better at living this way than what you are.

One other benefit that I haven’t mentioned is this. Christianity tells us that ultimately at the end of time, whenever that is, God will be renewing and resurrecting all things. The good and loving things that we do now, whether it is for others, for animals, for the planet or whatever are somehow used by God as part of this renewed world. We are called to work in anticipation of and for that day. It is my belief that we have purpose and meaning beyond the time when the universe as we know it comes to an end.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Stile, posted 01-30-2017 3:28 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Stile, posted 01-31-2017 11:05 AM GDR has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 2848
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 73 of 144 (798143)
01-31-2017 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by GDR
01-30-2017 8:00 PM


Re: Hope this helps
GDR writes:

I have two fundamental beliefs that if I couldn’t hold them I would not refer to myself as a Christian. My view is that Christianity hangs on these two beliefs. The first is that God is good, always good and uncompromisingly good. (I’m quite happy with defining “good” in roughly the terms you outlined in your post.) The second is that God resurrected Jesus, into a new type of eternal bodily form after His crucifixion. All of my other Christian beliefs flow from those two fundamental beliefs. If I am wrong then I have nothing to offer in response to your question. As I said, truth matters.

I certainly agree that truth matters. The list I provided was not intended to be exhaustive.

If however I am correct then I can say that as humans and specifically Christians we are called to band together and work co-operatively in order to more effectively love our neighbour, wherever that neighbour happens to live. The “Samaritan” was Christ’s neighbour. Also we are told that our hearts as Christians are more open to that “still small voice of God” or His “Holy Spirit” that touches the hearts of all of us, than we would be otherwise. Again, anecdotally, but that has been my experience which is not to say that I am any better at living this way than what you are.

I would say that we are not "called to" work together.
But I still "want to" work together, and I'm filled with joy and happiness whenever I find like-minded individuals (for whatever-reason-they-hold-dear).

To me, personally, it is better to make this decision on one's own instead of following "some call" from any authority. That is, anyone can follow an order (being "called") to do something... but to do something because you think you need to do it... to be a good person just because you think it's the right thing to do... without any higher authority to fall back on... that (to me) speaks to the core of someone's heart as opposed to then having to ask "why do you follow the calling?" Which, of course, the answer may very well similarily be "because I want to."

But, I fully admit that this reasoning behind why we should work together is a minimal thing. It doesn't really matter. What matters (to me) is the idea of people wanting to work together for a "good and better" life. I don't really care what anyone's specific reason for such a decision is... I just care if they want such a thing or not. Because, if someone does not want such a thing... it belies a certain "ugly soul" kind of negativity that I fully believe should be fought against and shunned from normal society.

Also we are told that our hearts as Christians are more open to that “still small voice of God” or His “Holy Spirit” that touches the hearts of all of us, than we would be otherwise.

Perhaps it is.
Perhaps it is not.

That's my question

Can you show that it is?

Again, I'm quite sure that for "some specific people" (perhaps yourself) it most certainly is.
But, of course, I'm also sure that "for some specific people" (like myself) it most certainly is not.

For myself, I am able to listen to my conscience a lot better by remembering to put others first instead of myself. Taking a moment and taking things slowly is what works for me. Any thinking of God does the same thing as thinking of anything-else (for me)... it actually reduces how much I think about others and leads me to be more selfish. I will fully admit that this doesn't work for everyone... but that's exactly my point... my way doesn't work for everyone and neither does yours.

I can show you how it appears that it does not work for all Christians... by showing you that Christians are not any-more-likely to help other people. That Christians are not any-more-likely to not-get-divorced (say) or that they are not any-more-likely to end up in jail and many other such social norms that show that Christians "as a group" are just as moral and immoral as the rest of society.

Christianity tells us that ultimately at the end of time, whenever that is, God will be renewing and resurrecting all things. The good and loving things that we do now, whether it is for others, for animals, for the planet or whatever are somehow used by God as part of this renewed world. We are called to work in anticipation of and for that day. It is my belief that we have purpose and meaning beyond the time when the universe as we know it comes to an end.

This most certainly could be a benefit that only comes from God.

Of course, it could also work against you just as easily, too. Perhaps the being-in-charge is not God, but some other powerful being. This other-power-being is just fine with those who worship him, as well as atheists (as they don't worship anyone) but he doesn't accept those who picked God to worship... so they don't get an afterlife.

Or maybe only atheists get an afterlife and anyone who believes in any god does not.

So, yes, you could be right on this one. But, unfortunately, we don't have much information on "what happens when we die" yet... so we really can't say one way or another. So, to me, such a possibility is useless without anything to show that it could actually be a part of reality. Otherwise, it's simply a gamble with "atheism" (or any other belief) having the exact same odds of winning.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by GDR, posted 01-30-2017 8:00 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-31-2017 12:46 PM Stile has responded
 Message 78 by GDR, posted 02-01-2017 5:28 PM Stile has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11176
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 74 of 144 (798154)
01-31-2017 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Stile
01-31-2017 11:05 AM


Re: Hope this helps
I would say that we are not "called to" work together.
But I still "want to" work together,

I would describe my desire to help people as being called to do it.

Much like any desire, its not that it comes from my mind as much as I just experience it through feeling.

So where do those feelings come from? Do you think that your self is the sole source of them? Are you sure about that?

When I look in there, and see out through the other side, as see a source for those feelings that is not my self. I use the term "God" sometimes to describe that source.

Would those feelings be there if there was not a God providing them? I don't know, but I doubt it. That's what separates us from the other animals, imho, or, er: the men from the boys (finally got to watch that "now you're a man video" and you were totally right).

Now, from my experiences, you don't even have to believe in God to tap into that source and be driven to follow your desires (that, of course, wouldn't negate God's necessity if it were true). But, realizing that it is not your self that you owe all your wonderful desires to ends up helping the individual find the drive to follow those desires more strongly.

To me, personally, it is better to make this decision on one's own instead of following "some call" from any authority. That is, anyone can follow an order (being "called") to do something... but to do something because you think you need to do it... to be a good person just because you think it's the right thing to do... without any higher authority to fall back on... that (to me) speaks to the core of someone's heart as opposed to then having to ask "why do you follow the calling?" Which, of course, the answer may very well similarily be "because I want to."

So, it's not following the call from authority for authority's sake, it is realizing that there's something bigger than you involved and that you can do things for reasons that are greater than just because you want to.

The strength in the drive from that "call" can exceed the one that comes solely from the individual's willpower to follow their own desires.

In that way, a benefit that is only available through God would be the meeting the goal that you could not achieve on your own by yourself. I suppose if there's nothing you can't do, and you have it all figured out and are doing everything that your heart desires, then perhaps there's nothing left for God to help you with

Also we are told that our hearts as Christians are more open to that “still small voice of God” or His “Holy Spirit” that touches the hearts of all of us, than we would be otherwise.

Perhaps it is.
Perhaps it is not.

That's my question

Can you show that it is?

I can only testify that opening myself up to God has allowed me to achieve things that I couldn't before. Other than that, I could try to show you the way to the door, but you have to open it yourself and look inside and be ready to accept that there may be something there responding.

And I don't even know if it's God, that's just a fairly decent term to use to talk about this thing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Stile, posted 01-31-2017 11:05 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Stile, posted 02-01-2017 10:22 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2848
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 75 of 144 (798245)
02-01-2017 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by New Cat's Eye
01-31-2017 12:46 PM


Re: Hope this helps
New Cat's Eye writes:

I would describe my desire to help people as being called to do it.

Much like any desire, its not that it comes from my mind as much as I just experience it through feeling.

I think it's very important that we acknowledge that each and every one of us is "the authority" on our own personal feelings.
I don't think we all "feel" or "experience feelings" in the same way. I think that such things are partly shaped by our physiology but also shaped by our experiences and current understandings.

So where do those feelings come from?

Short answer? I don't know.

Do you think that your self is the sole source of them?

Yes.

Are you sure about that?

Absolutely not.

Would those feelings be there if there was not a God providing them? I don't know, but I doubt it. That's what separates us from the other animals, imho, or, er: the men from the boys

I don't think that having feelings separates us from the animals. I think that how we react to the feelings we receive is what separates us. That is, I think animals experience feelings as well... but we tend to call them "instincts" when animals are concerned due to how they instantly react and "choose" a course of action.

For us, we experience feelings, but we also have the ability to use our intelligence to filter more on what we're going to do with those feelings. Are we going to go without initial instinct? Are we going to think about it a bit longer? We seem to be capable of a more drawn-out, analytical process.

Now, from my experiences, you don't even have to believe in God to tap into that source and be driven to follow your desires (that, of course, wouldn't negate God's necessity if it were true).

I would agree.

But, realizing that it is not your self that you owe all your wonderful desires to ends up helping the individual find the drive to follow those desires more strongly.

I would say that such a realization would help certain individuals find the drive to follow those desires more strongly.
I don't think this is the sort of thing that works for everyone in the same way.

I would also say that some people realizing that such things are "from themselves, not externally created" will again help certain people find the drive to follow those desires more strongly.

My point on this is that we need to figure out what type of person we are, and move on from there.
I would also add that (as far as I know) there is no evidence pointing one way or another on such an "existential" issue... I don't think we can "know" whether or not such things are externally provided or internally created. Perhaps one is right, perhaps the other is wrong, perhaps both hold some truth. I don't think our knowledge is at the point where we know such things yet. But, please, correct me if you're aware of any advances in such areas.

The strength in the drive from that "call" can exceed the one that comes solely from the individual's willpower to follow their own desires.

For me, it's the other way around. My individual willpower seems (and always has been) an unending, seemingly-infinite source of motivational power that has always (in my personal experience, of being me) been stronger than any and all external forces ever acting upon me in my life.

I'm not saying you're wrong. In fact, in my view, I expect many people to be the way you're describing... that the external power is larger and stronger than anything you've ever experienced.

What I'm saying is that you are right for you (I can't actually say that... only you can say that... this just seems to be what you're saying...).
And I am right for me (this I can definitively say... since I am me).

...as long as we don't have evidential-knowledge one way or the other that says otherwise, anyway. Because, to me, "the truth" is also very important... but as far as I can tell, what I'm describing (different for different people) *is* the truth. Or, at least, not contradicted by any accessible observations.

In that way, a benefit that is only available through God would be the meeting the goal that you could not achieve on your own by yourself.

And this, I agree with. However, this is what I describe as "individual benefits for specific people" as opposed to some sort of "general, objective benefit that would work for everyone."

I suppose if there's nothing you can't do, and you have it all figured out and are doing everything that your heart desires, then perhaps there's nothing left for God to help you with

I wouldn't say there nothing I can't do on my own.
I'm only saying I get "my most powerful feeling of motivation and purpose" from inside myself (as far as I can tell, anyway).

I can only testify that opening myself up to God has allowed me to achieve things that I couldn't before. Other than that, I could try to show you the way to the door, but you have to open it yourself and look inside and be ready to accept that there may be something there responding.

I'm not trying to get at "personal benefits" that help you do something you couldn't before.
I can achieve "things I couldn't do before" without God (as far as I'm aware).

I'm looking more for something that only God can provide.

Like an afterlife would be an example (but, obviously, this isn't "known" and has it's own issues).

Not things like "I'm happier than I've ever been!"... that's fantastic, but I'm happier than I've ever been without God... so this doesn't seem to be something that only God can provide.

And I don't even know if it's God, that's just a fairly decent term to use to talk about this thing.

Works for me


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-31-2017 12:46 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-01-2017 12:08 PM Stile has responded

    
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