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Author Topic:   The Flood, fossils, & the geologic evidence
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


(1)
Message 1 of 377 (528878)
10-07-2009 11:13 AM


Being a six day creationist I believe that the Genesis flood (chapters6-9) is just as literal as the creation account itself. I intend to bring forth extensive evidence that the world was once entirely destroyed by that great catclysm and that that event accounts for the multiplied billions of fossils in the earth. No slow and gradual process could account for fossilzation on such a massive scale.

First, both creationists and evolutionists agree that rapid burial provides the best conditions for the formation of fossils. Let me illustrate what immediate burial can do.

This fossil skeleton was found at the foot of Mt. Vesuvius in Italy. This individual was buried and encased in hot ash in A.D. 79.

This couple appear to have been destroyed while sleeping together. They didn't have a chance to get away.

But what caused the following burial of countless thousands of organisms who were all crushed in the same place at what had to be the same time:

The fossil bed at Agate Springs, Nebraska. Question: did all those organisms (wild boars, rhinocerus, & extinct mammals of many kinds) all migrate to this spot just to die together? Or perhaps they were the last of the animal world with enough mobility to escape to higher ground the rising flood waters that was presently destroying the world? There are many such locations of thousands (in some cases millions) of organisms that were likewise crushed and fossilized instantly.

The next post will reveal the location of the strata where these animals were buried.


Replies to this message:
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 10 of 377 (528898)
10-07-2009 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Coyote
10-07-2009 12:07 PM


Re: A test for Calypsis4
Well, Coyote:

I can see that you have already arrived at your conclusion without even waiting to see the evidence that I have. It will be just as extensive as was the living fossils.

But concerning the radiocarbon dating of D4h3:

Quote: "This is based on the assumption that today’s rate of mutations in mitochondrial DNA can be extrapolated back into the past. However, this is just an assumption based on the doctrine of uniformitarianism (that is, that the rates of change we observe in nature today are roughly the same as for all of time)." Answersingenesis.com

I have seen so many different results as far as dating specimens that differ widely with each other depending on which lab does the testing.


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Replies to this message:
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 11 of 377 (528900)
10-07-2009 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Calypsis4
10-07-2009 12:35 PM


Re: A test for Calypsis4
What you are seeing in the picture below is the scene from the big window of the museum at Agate Springs, Nebraska. It's a picture I took myself in mid-May of this year. The fossil conglomeration that was seen in the previous post was found just below the high precipice at the 4,700 ft elevation.

The land between the plateaus was washed out for many miles up and down the valley where these fossils were found and the whole area is littered with them, including another area where numerous fossils were found buried together. What caused this if it wasn't the flood of Genesis?

Much of the American west is similar to what you see in this photo:


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Calypsis4, posted 10-07-2009 12:35 PM Calypsis4 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 13 of 377 (528904)
10-07-2009 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Calypsis4
10-07-2009 12:39 PM


Re: A test for Calypsis4
There is extensive evidence of fossils made during cataclysm. This fish was crushed at the moment it was eating its lunch.

Here is another one:

Then there is this:

This is a fossil fish which was destroyed in the act of giving birth.


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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 17 of 377 (528915)
10-07-2009 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Coyote
10-07-2009 12:07 PM


Re: A test for Calypsis4
There is an archaeological site in southern Alaska called On Your Knees Cave. From that cave a human skeleton was removed. It was radiocarbon dated to 10,300 years ago. A tooth was submitted for mtDNA testing, and it was found to have an unusual haplotype, now referred to as D4h3. That haplotype is known from 46 living individuals stretching from southern California to the tip of South America.

Since I was ordered to give you a more specific example I will do so. Your contentions are unacceptable because radio-carbon dating is (1) not always accurate, and (2) there are different dates given to the same specimens by different labs. I have seen this kind of phenomena for many yrs.

Let me show you just one reason why I have little confidence in such dating methods; Quote: "Both haplogroups appear to have arisen about 16,000 years ago.

The researchers found that all the people with the D4h3 haplogroup presently live in South America, while those with the X2a haplogroup live in Canada and the United States, which suggests that the two genetically distinct bands of early humans struck off in different directions around 16,000 years ago."

http://johnhawks.net/taxonomy/term/109

Which date are we to accept? Your date of 10,300 yrs or that of the scientists who arrived at the 16,000 yr figure?

It's a joke. That there is a DNA connection between the ancients and their living offspring I don't deny. It's the dating methods I have a problem with.


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Replies to this message:
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 20 of 377 (528919)
10-07-2009 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Calypsis4
10-07-2009 1:47 PM


Re: A test for Calypsis4
There is more. Much more:

Found in the Green River formation of Wyoming. All these marine organisms were apparently destroyed at the same time. Slab after slab of rock has been cut in thin slices at a time by geologists who seemingly cannot find the end to the evidence of destruction. There are millions of them in the Green River area alone. So what catastrophe of the past caused this? Doesn't the fact that we have world-wide evidence of catastrophe coupled with the fact that there are written accounts of such a thing in almost every ancient culture as well as that of scripture speak loudly and clearly that such a cataclym occurred?

But like the observed evidence of volcanic activity on the moon such ancient testimony is trivialized by believers in evolution.

Another photo from Green river.

Edited by Calypsis4, : addtions.


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Replies to this message:
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 21 of 377 (528920)
10-07-2009 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Huntard
10-07-2009 1:51 PM


Irrelevant blather hidden
Yes, that was sarcasm.

Sarcasm will get you nowhere with me. The point was made. Dates are often widely different depending on who does it.

{Irrelevant blather hidden - Adminnemooseus}

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Irrelevant blather hidden.


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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 23 of 377 (528922)
10-07-2009 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Kitsune
10-07-2009 1:51 PM


Irrelevant blather hidden
Hello, again, Lindalou. Hope you are well.

Not always. Have you heard of or seen pictures of the peat bog bodies of Europe?

Yes. I'll get back with this one after lunch.

{Irrelevant blather hidden - Adminnemooseus}

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Irrelevant blather hidden.


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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 27 of 377 (528929)
10-07-2009 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Granny Magda
10-07-2009 1:17 PM


Re: Bonebed
So, can you falsify that explanation? It sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

That's exactly what I am doing.

This is me climbing a hill at Agate Springs to examine an eroding formation. These are found all over the area.

Below is a panoramic view of the Agate Springs area. The elevation of the entire land was once at least as high as the tops of the plateaus but the multiplied billions of tons of sediment has been washed away. From here it is about 3 miles to the nearest plateau in the distant background.

But was it that tiny little creek with but little water in the valley below that washed it all away or was it the same thing that caused many more billions of tons of sediment throughout the western USA to be washed away from much larger geologic formations?

In my view, the erosion seen at the base of these formations has occurred since after the flood but the much larger areas where sedimentary rock existed was washed out by the receding waters of the Noahic flood itself.

When water flowed again, the river washed the bones into a crook or oxbow in the river. The “piling up” of these bones created the “Great bonebed of Agate”.

No, these animals did not lay around for a long period of time only to be washed to the side of a plateau and covered slowly and turned into fossils. They were all crushed at the same time by some catastrophic event. The receptionist at Agate Springs told me that there the whole areas has evidence that it was all under water at one time.

Edited by Calypsis4, : addition


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Replies to this message:
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 30 of 377 (528934)
10-07-2009 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Coyote
10-07-2009 2:27 PM


Re: A test for Calypsis4
You have a problem all right; if the dating is accurate your flood myth is debunked.

You're the one with the problem, fella.

Lets accept the radiocarbon date unless there is evidence to contradict it. (There isn't.) It is confirmed by archaeological and paleontological data as well.

I ask you which date I should accept and you give me this nonsense?
I am DEFINITELY going to come back to this before the day is over. I am going to show you a few things about radiocarbon 'accuracy' that will make your head spin.

Say, the next time you don't like the weather on a real hot day then use your kind of 'logic' and change things by taking your thermometer and arbitrarily change the temp from 98 degrees and make a wider calibration by erasing the old marks and painting on some new ones. Then you can change the temp to 68 degrees (or whatever your comfort zone is). Just think, you can change your comfort factor by re-calibrating your thermomenter. Neat, huh?


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Replies to this message:
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 33 of 377 (528939)
10-07-2009 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by AdminNosy
10-07-2009 2:32 PM


Re: Enough of that
Calypsis4 you have given enough examples of rapid preservation after death (or even at the time of death).
You might note that no one doubts that this happens often. In fact, very frequently or we wouldn't have the specimens to examine.

So you may stop bringing that up right now! Done with. Carry on and make your point that you wish to base on that and answer issues that are raised to you.

Sure thing Mr. Administrator. I was just begining to have fun with this but you're the boss. I assure you I could commit massive overkill just like I could with the living fossils subject.

"Frequently" depends on (gasp!) ones frame of reference but I won't argue it here. I suppose you could call these examples 'frequent' though:

and this; a fossilized hat dating back a whole sixty yrs.

The message is loud and clear: it doesn't take millions of years for fossils to form.

Now, back to answering the questions.


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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 34 of 377 (528942)
10-07-2009 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Coyote
10-07-2009 2:47 PM


Re: A test for Calypsis4
And be aware that several of us here are pretty well-versed in the subject, ranging from the archaeological, laboratory, and technical to the theoretical ends of things.

'Well versed'; translation: mentally conditioned to see the trees but ignore the forest. They do it on almost every subject. I would call it Orwellian mind control.

So how does an Orwellian radiocarbon date this one?

Quote: "In Utah, USA, in 1968, a piece of rock was opened revealing a fossil of a sandaled shoe which seemed to have crushed a trilobite, a sea creature which died out about 280 million years ago. The sandal that seems to have crushed a living trilobite is 10.5 inches long by 3.5 inches wide with the heel being slightly more indented than the sole. Humans are thought to have been on the planet for between 1 and 2 million years, and well shaped footwear only in the last few thousand years."

http://www.morticom.com/categoryweirdearthanomalies.htm

I have seen several evolutionist 'explanations' of this one. Pitiful. Some of them even suggest that the heel marks are a natural causation and not heel marks at all. I laugh at that one every time I see it.

But then, radiocarbon date this one, professor:

A human tooth encased in coal. Hmm. Are our dates a bit out of whack?

The coal mines of the world is just about the creationist best friend.


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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 35 of 377 (528943)
10-07-2009 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Kitsune
10-07-2009 2:03 PM


Re: A test for Calypsis4
Admin: I hope we can prevent this thread going the exact same way as the "Fossils Disprove Evolution" one. It's already headed in that direction: picture after picture repeating the same claim, while other posts are ignored.

I know how it hurts to be confronted with direct observational evidence against what you believe. Don't you think it is time you faced the reality?

I am disappointed in you. I do answer the posts when I can and if you were looking carefully you would see them. Check out the ones I answered to Coyote and Granny(?). But it takes times to answer so many people. But I suppose that to expect a break from those who hate what I believe in so much is probably too much to expect.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 37 of 377 (528945)
10-07-2009 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Mr Jack
10-07-2009 2:52 PM


Re: Ice age.
There was an ice age.

Yes, after the flood.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Mr Jack, posted 10-07-2009 2:52 PM Mr Jack has acknowledged this reply

    
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 1492 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 42 of 377 (528952)
10-07-2009 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by obvious Child
10-07-2009 4:08 PM


By that logic, we should also see rapidly mobile dinosaurs as well.

We do. I did. The following is a photo of me near the painted desert in Arizona.

This is me with a helper examining a fossil footprint bed over a vast field that diplayed literally thousands of footprints, including what looked like human footprints. Below are one of what could have been a human foot with the toes sticking inside of the dino print:

From appearances the tracks made me think of a big crowd of animals scurrying in every direction.

What was most interesting to me to find out that ten yrs earlier some creation scientists had visited the same site and come to the conclusion that at least three of the footprints observable at the site were human. I didn't know that until later.

Even more interesting was that about a half mile away and 80 or more feet up on the plateau were water ripple marks on both sides of the road that looked like this:


From: a Rim of Time by Stephen Trimble.

Actually, these are ripple marks found at high elevation in the Summervile formation in Utah. Such ripple marks are found at almost any elevation in the world. That is because the flood covered the entire world at one time a few milleniums ago.


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