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Author Topic:   Help in teaching 11-12 Year olds (RE (Religious Education) in the UK)
Huntard
Member (Idle past 1045 days)
Posts: 2854
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 106 of 126 (539213)
12-14-2009 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Peg
12-14-2009 2:43 AM


Re: Evolution and Origins
Peg writes:

I know about speciation...there was a discussion on it here recently where I pointed out that the Golapogas finches were said to have developed into new species...but the facts are that the finch's are still finch's


As they are also still birds, vertebrates, and so on, does this mean all vertebrates are the same "Kind"? If no, then where do you draw the line?

Each 'kind' of animal has the genetic potential for great variety, thats why there are more then 400 different breeds of dogs. You might call it speciation, but the reality is that they are all still dogs.

All dogs are of the same species.

so a skull with a thick brow means a different species?

Amongst other things, yes.

Im sure you could still find some people with very thick brows

Not as thick as this one, and that's not the only difference, Peg.

Edited by AdminModulous, : Sections not related to education hidden.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Peg, posted 12-14-2009 2:43 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Peg, posted 12-14-2009 4:10 AM Huntard has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 2277 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 107 of 126 (539215)
12-14-2009 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Huntard
12-14-2009 3:09 AM


Re: Evolution and Origins
Huntard writes:

As they are also still birds, vertebrates, and so on, does this mean all vertebrates are the same "Kind"? If no, then where do you draw the line?

this is a good question in light of 'speciation' and im not sure what the answer is

Lets say, for arguments sake, that the bible account is accurate with regard to the existence of life.

A Genesis 'Kind' refers to life-forms with the ability for cross-fertility within its limits. We've seen how a lion and a Tiger can reproduce, but they go no further. This would make the lion and tiger the same kind...they belong to the same family and can breed to a point. The boundary between 'kinds' then should be drawn at the point where fertilization does not occur.

So when God instructed Noah to collect two of each animal together to put on the ark, it was animals according to their kinds that were collected. With the above description of kind in mind, and with the fact that there is a huge potential for great variety in one such 'kind', then Noah need only have one representative from each family group on the ark....and from them, all the cats we have today are possible thru genetics.... perhaps what you call 'speciation'

Huntard writes:

Not as thick as this one, and that's not the only difference, Peg.

This guy has a thick forebrow

These guys are completely different but still the same species

And the different shapes of these three are testament to just how much variety there is in the human frame

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminModulous, : Sections not related to education hidden.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Huntard, posted 12-14-2009 3:09 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Huntard, posted 12-14-2009 4:23 AM Peg has responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 1045 days)
Posts: 2854
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 108 of 126 (539216)
12-14-2009 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Peg
12-14-2009 4:10 AM


Re: Evolution and Origins
Peg writes:

this is a good question in light of 'speciation' and im not sure what the answer is

Lets say, for arguments sake, that the bible account is accurate with regard to the existence of life.


Ok, for arguments' sake.

A Genesis 'Kind' refers to life-forms with the ability for cross-fertility within its limits. We've seen how a lion and a Tiger can reproduce, but they go no further. This would make the lion and tiger the same kind...they belong to the same family and can breed to a point. The boundary between 'kinds' then should be drawn at the point where fertilization does not occur.

So, lions and housecats are not the same kind? Or lions and cheetahs? Just lions and tigers, as they can interbreed? Then what kind are cats,or cheetahs, or lynxes?

When God instructed Noah to collect two of each animal together to put on the ark, it was animals according to their kinds that were collected.

With that description of kind in mind, we know that there is a huge potential for great variety in one such 'kind'


Not really, since only lions and tigers are apparently the same kind, since they're the only ones that can interbreed. Also, are ostriches and chickesns a differnt kind, as they have no interfertility? I don't think interfertility is a very good boundary to pick.

So, Noah could have taken only 2 cats as representative of the cat kind, and from them all the cats alive today could have developed thru genetics....perhaps what you call 'speciation'

According to you, kinds are only of the same kind when they are interfertile. Most cats cannot interbreed with others, meaning most cats are a kind all of their own.

This guy has a thick forebrow.

Not as thick as the skull's, and like I said that isn't the only difference.

These guys are completely different but still the same species.

That picture doesn't seem to work, so I can't comment.

And the different shapes of these three are testament to just how much variety there is in the human frame

The only reall difference between those thre is their size, the rest of their anatomy is very similar.

Edited by AdminModulous, : Sections not related to education hidden.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Peg, posted 12-14-2009 4:10 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Peg, posted 12-14-2009 4:39 AM Huntard has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 2277 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 109 of 126 (539217)
12-14-2009 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Huntard
12-14-2009 4:23 AM


Re: Evolution and Origins
Huntard writes:

So, lions and housecats are not the same kind? Or lions and cheetahs? Just lions and tigers, as they can interbreed? Then what kind are cats,or cheetahs, or lynxes?

no because they are all types of cats...what i'm saying is there is no reason why the two cats taken on board the ark, could not have speciated to become all the many kinds of cat we see today.

leopards and juguars have been cross bred to produce whats called a Jaglion. Actually, while looking into this, i never realized just how much cross breeding has been experimented with. Here is a site with links to many hybrid cats.

Edited by AdminModulous, : Sections not related to education hidden.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Huntard, posted 12-14-2009 4:23 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Huntard, posted 12-14-2009 5:09 AM Peg has responded
 Message 111 by Coyote, posted 12-14-2009 5:12 AM Peg has responded
 Message 112 by Brian, posted 12-14-2009 6:16 AM Peg has responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 1045 days)
Posts: 2854
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 110 of 126 (539219)
12-14-2009 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Peg
12-14-2009 4:39 AM


Re: Evolution and Origins
Peg writes:

no because they are all types of cats...


So? You said that kinds are only interfertile within their own kind. Meaning that if one cat (say, a lion) cannot be interfertile with another cat (say, a comon housecat), they are not of the same kind. Or is it perhaps not the best way to determine a kind, interfertility? Or, let's look at birds, is a bird of paradise a different kind as a chicken?

what i'm saying is there is no reason why the two cats taken on board the ark, could not have speciated to become all the many kinds of cat we see today.

Then you accept evolution. Though a much much faster version of evolution then has ever been seen. Also, why would the changes stop at a certain point, as you seem to be thinking?

leopards and juguars have been cross bred to produce whats called a Jaglion. Actually, while looking into this, i never realized just how much cross breeding has been experimented with. Here is a site with links to many hybrid cats.

I'll look at the site this evening, since I can't access it at this time. I'll edit my reaction in this post.

Edited by AdminModulous, : Sections not related to education hidden.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Peg, posted 12-14-2009 4:39 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Peg, posted 12-14-2009 7:03 AM Huntard has responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5540
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 111 of 126 (539220)
12-14-2009 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Peg
12-14-2009 4:39 AM


Re: Evolution and Origins
no because they are all types of cats...what i'm saying is there is no reason why the two cats taken on board the ark, could not have speciated to become all the many kinds of cat we see today.

You deny speciation then pack what scientists say required millions of years of evolution into just a few centuries. And have it suddenly stop??

Give it up. You have backed yourself into a corner from which you need to construct increasingly fantastic tales to support a disproven myth.

And you want this taught in schools??


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Peg, posted 12-14-2009 4:39 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Peg, posted 12-14-2009 7:07 AM Coyote has responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 2307 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 112 of 126 (539224)
12-14-2009 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Peg
12-14-2009 4:39 AM


Re: Evolution and Origins
what i'm saying is there is no reason why the two cats taken on board the ark, could not have speciated to become all the many kinds of cat we see today.

Well there are many reasons!

The Flud, according to God's Big Book of Fairytales, was c. 4400 years ago so how do you explain the hyper-evolution that would have been required for the whole range of cats recorded in Egyptian records? Remember little Tiddles didn't just appear a couple of years ago.

Here's another good reason, you do not have a single shred of evidence to support this hyper-evolution! Be honest, you only reject the hard scentific facts because you have read something different in an ancient book, you have no other reason at all to reject evolution (keeping in mind you just accepted a ridiculous version of it).

You really need to give up this embarrassing non-stop posting of crivel that you are gleaning from ignorant creationists.

Here's an idea, why no actually take a science course at a uni or a distance learning course and learn the basics?

Edited by Brian, : spelin

Edited by AdminModulous, : Sections not related to education hidden.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Peg, posted 12-14-2009 4:39 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Peg, posted 12-14-2009 7:23 AM Brian has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 2277 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 113 of 126 (539225)
12-14-2009 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Huntard
12-14-2009 5:09 AM


Re: Evolution and Origins
Huntard writes:

So? You said that kinds are only interfertile within their own kind. Meaning that if one cat (say, a lion) cannot be interfertile with another cat (say, a comon housecat), they are not of the same kind. Or is it perhaps not the best way to determine a kind, interfertility?

you may have a point on that depending on what a 'species' actually is. Have we made the correct determination of what a 'species' is? I dont know.

What i said earlier is that the boundary between "kinds" should be drawn at the point where fertilization ceases to occur because in Genesis, a 'kind' was mentioned along with 'go forth and muliply'

Genesis doesnt go into the details of how the muliplying would take place. It simply says they'd multiply 'according to their kinds'

as far as i'm aware, the basic meaning of a "species" is a sort, a kind or a variety. But then in biologic terminology they apply a species to any group of interfertile animals that have one or more distinctive characteristics. So really, a moggy is the same species as a lion because they have one or more distinct characteristics, yes?

but if we take it back to hybridization, some cats of different varieties can be hybridized, but there is a complete inability of man to hybridize with the ape family...therefore apes and man cannot be from the same 'kind'. We may look similar and have similar characteristics, but those characteristics do not mean we are from the same species so the biologic terminology of what a species is cannot be 100% accurate either.

Huntard writes:

Then you accept evolution. Though a much much faster version of evolution then has ever been seen. Also, why would the changes stop at a certain point, as you seem to be thinking?

it would seem that chromosomes play a role in successful reproduction.

If you looked at the link re hybridized cats, they show how cats with a certain number of chromosomes are not compatible with cats of a different number. But the point is that even though they have different numbers of chromosomes, they are still cats.

Edited by AdminModulous, : Sections not related to education hidden.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Huntard, posted 12-14-2009 5:09 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Huntard, posted 12-14-2009 8:03 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 2277 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 114 of 126 (539226)
12-14-2009 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Coyote
12-14-2009 5:12 AM


Re: Evolution and Origins
Coyote writes:

You deny speciation then pack what scientists say required millions of years of evolution into just a few centuries. And have it suddenly stop??

a few centuries?

its more like 4,000 odd years

Edited by AdminModulous, : Sections not related to education hidden.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Coyote, posted 12-14-2009 5:12 AM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by hooah212002, posted 12-14-2009 7:14 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 123 by Coyote, posted 12-14-2009 11:25 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 252 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 115 of 126 (539227)
12-14-2009 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Peg
12-14-2009 2:13 AM


Re: Evolution and Origins
Peg writes:

isnt a natural origin what evolution is all about? Isnt that why evolution is so fiercly contested by creationists?

hooah212002 writes:

No. Evolution is so fiercely contested by creationists mainly because it turns "THE creation story" into allegory. Most of the rest of the bible can still be taken at face value, even in light of the facts of evolution, provided you view it as no more than a history book.

peg writes:

no it can't. The bible is the communication from the one who created the man and woman in his image, and all the animals 'according to their kinds'

he does not say that the put molecular life on the earth and allowed it time to evolve. He says he created each kind of animal and finally created the human man and woman as separate creations.

This is exactly why christians contest evolution.

So you go from asking why evolution is so fiercely contested to knowing exactly why? Why is it so hard to believe that a majority of the bible is simple allegory and myth? All of the rituals are stolen form other religions. Christmas? You guys don't even know when your failed messiah's birthday is. God even commands against christmas trees(Jeremiah 10). easter? Pagan.

{ABE} I know you as a JW don't celebrate x-mas, but the rest of christianity does, lending more creedence to "which one of you to believe?".

Peg writes:

Jesus christ spoke about A&E as real people. They are even listed in his geneolgy...so if they are not real, then nor is Jesus.

You only need A&E in jesus/ lineage for your myth book to be NOT allegorical. Jesus doesn't need them to be just some hippy (to which is what I subscribe to jesus being. He says some good shit in that book. Seemed like a nice guy who wanted good for the world). If A&E are not real, christianity is a sham, based on a whole lot of nothing. Sounds good to me. Now creationists need to see the light.

The reason why some might is because most christians dont study their own religion.

Which is why I repeatedly ask all of you christians: which damn one of you do we "heathenous non-believers" believe in order to be saved? Hell, you guys can't even agree on the little things: what a kind is, jesus' skin color/ethnicity. This is the main reason religion should ONLY be taught in a religion class, giving equal time to ALL beliefs. And only to be taught as what other people believe, not lending creedence to one being superior to the other. And yes, the pastafarianism should be taught as well.

You are on the right path Peg. You, out of all the bible thumpers here, are the closest to coming over to the dark side. Stop fighting it. I know you can see the light.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminModulous, : Sections not related to education hidden.


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Peg, posted 12-14-2009 2:13 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Peg, posted 12-14-2009 7:38 AM hooah212002 has responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 252 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 116 of 126 (539228)
12-14-2009 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Peg
12-14-2009 7:07 AM


Re: Evolution and Origins
its more like 4,000 odd years.

And that makes even more believable?

Edited by hooah212002, : sig

Edited by AdminModulous, : Sections not related to education hidden.


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Peg, posted 12-14-2009 7:07 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 2277 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


(1)
Message 117 of 126 (539229)
12-14-2009 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Brian
12-14-2009 6:16 AM


Re: Evolution and Origins
Brian writes:

The Flud, according to God's Big Book of Fairytales, was c. 4400 years ago so how do you explain the hyper-evolution that would have been required for the whole range of cats recorded in Egyptian records?

there is no problem there because the ancient egyptions are said to have domesticated cats around 2,000 bce...the flood came in the year 2370bce. Thats almost 400 years after the flood. And egypt was the area of land that the decendents of noahs son Ham inhabited.

Brian writes:

you do not have a single shred of evidence to support this hyper-evolution! Be honest, you only reject the hard scentific facts because you have read something different in an ancient book

No Brian, animals dont need time to change...they need genetics! Genetics, along with environment, is what allows the animals to reproduce in such variety.

Edited by AdminModulous, : Sections not related to education hidden.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Brian, posted 12-14-2009 6:16 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by hooah212002, posted 12-14-2009 7:54 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 122 by Brian, posted 12-14-2009 8:19 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 124 by hooah212002, posted 12-14-2009 12:37 PM Peg has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 2277 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 118 of 126 (539230)
12-14-2009 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by hooah212002
12-14-2009 7:14 AM


Re: Evolution and Origins
Hooah212002 writes:

I know you as a JW don't celebrate x-mas, but the rest of christianity does, lending more creedence to "which one of you to believe?"

like i always say, dont believe any of them ...believe the bible.

hooah212002 writes:

If A&E are not real, christianity is a sham, based on a whole lot of nothing. Sounds good to me. Now creationists need to see the light.

exactly. So any christian who believes that A&E are allegorical, they must also believe that Jesus is allegorical and therefore there is absolutely no reason to be a christian. Christianity is for those who seek salvation from sin and death...if there is no Jesus, there is no salvation.

hooah212002 writes:

you guys can't even agree on the little things: what a kind is, jesus' skin color/ethnicity. This is the main reason religion should ONLY be taught in a religion class, giving equal time to ALL beliefs.

im all for learning about other religions...the Awake magazines often have detailed articles about other religions.

hooah212002 writes:

You are on the right path Peg. You, out of all the bible thumpers here, are the closest to coming over to the dark side. Stop fighting it. I know you can see the light.

lol, no way...there is too much to live for!

Edited by AdminModulous, : Sections not related to education hidden.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by hooah212002, posted 12-14-2009 7:14 AM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by hooah212002, posted 12-14-2009 7:57 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 252 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 119 of 126 (539231)
12-14-2009 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Peg
12-14-2009 7:23 AM


Re: Evolution and Origins
there is no problem there because the ancient egyptions are said to have domesticated cats around 2,000 bce...the flood came in the year 2370bce. Thats almost 400 years after the flood. And egypt was the area of land that the decendents of noahs son Ham inhabited.

So, which "kind" of cat did they domesticate? were there numerous "kinds" of cats aboard this ark?

Edited by AdminModulous, : Sections not related to education hidden.


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Peg, posted 12-14-2009 7:23 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 252 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 120 of 126 (539232)
12-14-2009 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Peg
12-14-2009 7:38 AM


Re: Evolution and Origins
like i always say, dont believe any of them ...believe the bible.

Right. Because it's been proven to be such a reliable source of information. Why shouldn't we be able to go to the people who spout the word of god? Oh, and....which bible?????

im all for learning about other religions...the Awake magazines often have detailed articles about other religions.

So, you limit your learning of other religions to what your religion tells you? Surely you jest.

Edited by hooah212002, : added quote

Edited by AdminModulous, : Sections not related to education hidden.


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Peg, posted 12-14-2009 7:38 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
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