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Author Topic:   Does Death Pose Challenge To Abiogenesis
Huntard
Member
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 181 of 191 (533847)
11-03-2009 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Cedre
11-03-2009 5:40 AM


Re: Emergent proerties.....
Cedre writes:

As for the computer itself it has human makers and it utilises power, you can have a computer but without a source of power its but a collection of non functioning hardware.


In life, this power is provided by something called metabolism. You might have heard of it, and it consists of chemical reactions only.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Cedre, posted 11-03-2009 5:40 AM Cedre has not yet responded

    
EireEngineer
Junior Member (Idle past 2636 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 11-01-2009


Message 182 of 191 (533863)
11-03-2009 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by NosyNed
10-28-2009 9:49 AM


Re: Death?
You do realize that bacteria die fairly easily, and are not immortal? Right?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by NosyNed, posted 10-28-2009 9:49 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Huntard, posted 11-03-2009 10:49 AM EireEngineer has not yet responded
 Message 186 by lyx2no, posted 11-03-2009 2:53 PM EireEngineer has not yet responded

    
Huntard
Member
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 183 of 191 (533870)
11-03-2009 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by EireEngineer
11-03-2009 10:37 AM


Re: Death?
EireEngineer writes:

You do realize that bacteria die fairly easily, and are not immortal? Right?


Yes, he does. He wasn't talking about a force from outside acting upon the bacteria that makes it die, as can be seen from his sentence:

Nosyned writes:

For the first 3 billion years organisms didn't die unless they were killed.

What he meant was that when no such force is exerted, how do we determine when a bacteria "dies".


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by EireEngineer, posted 11-03-2009 10:37 AM EireEngineer has not yet responded

    
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 247
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


(1)
Message 184 of 191 (533883)
11-03-2009 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Cedre
11-02-2009 7:15 AM


You can't merely say that it isn't true and expect us to believe you, dish out evidence that clearly show that the carbon compounds needed for life are not in tact for a period after death. Note you should deny my claims in view of the links I provided, and those links clearly show that most of the bodies cells at least in humans are intact for a period following death.

It is not clear to me why the intact state of "most" of the body's cells after death is of any relevance to your argument. Depending on how one is defining death, it would be entirely consistent for most of the body's cells to still be alive for some period of time after death had been declared.

Perhaps it would be more helpful to your understanding of this subject if you addressed the question of why death occurs in an organism. Let us assume that I take a human being and close off their carotid arteries, thus depriving the brain of its blood supply. The person will die. Why? At a time following my intervention but just preceding their death, what is the physical state of their body (specifically the brain). Is it the same as the physical state that existed in the normally metabolizing brain before the vessels were occluded? Why do the things that make us die make us die?

Capt.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Cedre, posted 11-02-2009 7:15 AM Cedre has not yet responded

  
Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 1172 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


Message 185 of 191 (533905)
11-03-2009 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Cedre
11-03-2009 5:12 AM


Re: Emergent proerties.....
Cedre:

I will try one last time and change the analogy to try and separate emergent properties from 'irrelevant factors'.

Water evaporates from the sea (using the energy of the sun). It collects at cloud level as vapour. The cooler temperature causes condensation, and finally gravity causes the clumping and falling of rain.

Rain is an emergent property of the process of evaporation, condensation and gravitational influence of said water vapour. It didn't ascend into the sky as rain. It only comes down as such as a result of the combined processes of evaporation, condensation and gravitation.

There is no driver, no life force (you can't count the sun which drives the whole process - for this is the ultimate same driver of all our chemical reactions on earth...unless you are saying your God is our sun!). The initial vapour evaporating is not rain, doesn't look like rain, or act like rain. Yet rain is the emergent property of the cycle of events described above.

Literally thousands of physical and chemical processes on earth do similar things ...i.e. they cause emergent properties that are different from the input variables....some very surprising; some that can be worked out like the simple scenario above.

If science teaches us anything it is that you must look to the mundane first before saying "I can't believe this is natural...it must be a God force at work."

By the way, sorry if you thought I was being personal. I don't like personal attacks. My emails probably came across as they did through frustration. In no way do I mean any demeaning attitude by what I say. I enjoy debating, though it can be frustrating in getting points across....especially by analogies. They are meant to be useful, but all too often I have seen analogies attacked as the main argument. We've done it here...which is why I'm trying a different one now.

Over to you...

Edited by Drosophilla, : typo's


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Cedre, posted 11-03-2009 5:12 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by lyx2no, posted 11-03-2009 3:16 PM Drosophilla has responded

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2247 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 186 of 191 (533925)
11-03-2009 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by EireEngineer
11-03-2009 10:37 AM


Re: Death?
You do realize that bacteria die fairly easily, and are not immortal? Right?

Wrong. You're confusing immortal with invincible. Bacteria are immortal.


It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.
Anon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by EireEngineer, posted 11-03-2009 10:37 AM EireEngineer has not yet responded

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2247 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 187 of 191 (533928)
11-03-2009 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Drosophilla
11-03-2009 1:45 PM


Re: Emergent proerties.....
Hi Drosophilla

Don't you just love it when people confuse the analogy for the argument.

How's this for a lovely emergent property?

We even get a stick that's one more degree away from having any inherent property that could cause its motion.

Then we have this phenomenon causing camcorder batteries to be drained; making them that much closer to going to a land fill where they're gnawed on by a mole which dies. What property of rotating sticks is poisonous to moles?

Emergent properties just keep on emerging.


It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.
Anon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Drosophilla, posted 11-03-2009 1:45 PM Drosophilla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Drosophilla, posted 11-03-2009 7:25 PM lyx2no has acknowledged this reply

  
Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 1172 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


Message 188 of 191 (533950)
11-03-2009 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by lyx2no
11-03-2009 3:16 PM


Re: Emergent proerties.....
Hi lyx2no,

Nice vid - it does make you realise how interlinked everything is and how many suprises keep coming out of the woodwork in these emerging properties. I think it's either a supremely confident or completely uninformed person who would say "There's no way this property can have arisen except through a 'god force'."

Kind of reminds me of the story about the 18th century doctor (I'm afraid I don't know who it was) who allegedly said "Man cannot travel faster than about 30mph as the air pressure would crush his rib cage!"....kind of a curious statement as I'm sure they had galloping horseback riders back then!!

And yes, analogies can be the very devil. I have to hand it to Cedre...he's kind of hard to pin down (that is a compliment Cedre if you're reading this). Good debating practice though....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by lyx2no, posted 11-03-2009 3:16 PM lyx2no has acknowledged this reply

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6149
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 189 of 191 (534644)
11-10-2009 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Cedre
11-03-2009 12:57 AM


Cedre writes:

quote:
It is not irrelevant seeing that car A itself had to be started by a driver

Why? There are cars that can start themselves. Heck, they'll even drive themselves. Same for planes. Autopilots are sophisticated enough that outside of unusual weather conditions and the general mistrust of leaving it to a computer, planes fly themselves and can even take off and land without the need of a pilot.

It's why that jet was able to miss its airport and not crash into the ground. It was flying itself.

The Boeing 777 airplane even designed itself. It was made using evolutionary methods.

The GOLEM project at Cornell had computers figuring out on their own how to walk and then having robots create robots that walked via those non-human-created algorithms.

quote:
so there's no way of escaping the need for a driver or a "life-force"

So far, every example you've come up with actually shows you don't need that "life-force" analog you're insisting must be there.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Cedre, posted 11-03-2009 12:57 AM Cedre has not yet responded

    
Asking
Junior Member (Idle past 2569 days)
Posts: 19
Joined: 05-19-2010


Message 190 of 191 (562409)
05-28-2010 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cedre
10-28-2009 9:20 AM


First of all I'm not happy with your use of dead and alive matter as it implies that there is difference between matter that makes up living and non-living material. Could you please clarify what this difference is as I fail to see how an atom in a living organism differs from that in a dead organisms or non-living material. You are essentially a chemical machine that serves the puropse of ensuring the continued survival of the genetic information carried in your cells and therefore are no different to a virus.

Secondly you really need to look into the various reasons why living organisms die because essentially it boils down to either a lack of energy passing through their systems or the organism being subject to sufficient damage to be rendered non-functional (And this can be the result of many things ranging from lack of resources such as oxygen, physical damage, or even detrimental genes that become activated in later life which have yet to be weeded out of the genepool as we breed to early on in life for their to be a selective pressure to get rid of them).

Several things are known to affect the amount of time you life. Lifestyle and genetics for starters. Are you aware of the experiment carried out in mice where they were denied the oppurtunity to breed until later on in life (Going back to what I mentioned earler) and so natural selection favoured those individuals who lacked the genes which killed them in later life and remained reproductively active. They cumulative selective effect was that the average age of the mice sucessive generations was noticably increased.

Also a low-carb diet can increase your lifespan.

Edited by Asking, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cedre, posted 10-28-2009 9:20 AM Cedre has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12528
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 191 of 191 (562414)
05-28-2010 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Asking
05-28-2010 1:12 PM


Newbie Information
Hi Asking, welcome aboard!

If you're expecting a reply when posting to old messages then it is a good idea to click on the member's name first. This brings up a list of threads that member is participating in, with the most recently posted message at the top. In Cedre's case the top message, his most recent, was posted on 11/3/2009, more than 6 months ago.

Of course, if you're just trying to get an interesting discussion going again, fire away!


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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