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Author Topic:   Is Faster Than Light travel the wrong question?
Taz
Member (Idle past 3281 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 6 of 81 (533311)
10-30-2009 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by kbertsche
10-29-2009 7:34 PM


kbertsche writes:
The energy expenditure for this would be enormous, of course. That's why sci-fi scenarios of sending people to colonize distant planets are complete fantasy. It would require an energy source which is nearly infinite and essentially free.
Rrhain and I had a similar argument about this very thing. Here is my perspective on the matter of interstellar travel. But first, I need to reiterate what you said in terms that people from the age of sails could understand.
The wind speed to carry a ship from Europe to North America in a few days would be enormous, of course. That's why sci-fi scenarios of sending people to distant lands are complete fantasy. It would require wind speed that is nearly impossible to imagine.
If it's not obvious yet, I'm trying to point out that you are approaching this problem with a very 20th-21st century way of thinking, just like how a person from the 16th century would think about intercontinental travel. Flight never occurred to them. Bullet train never occurred to them. Underwater tunnels never occurred to them. To them, getting from Europe to the Americas or Asia in less than several months time would be nothing more than fantasy.
In very much the same way, you're superimposing our limited understanding of physics onto all the great inventions and discoveries waiting for us in the future. Sure, it may be fantasy now, but who knows what the future holds?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by kbertsche, posted 10-29-2009 7:34 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by CosmicChimp, posted 10-30-2009 10:06 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 9 by kbertsche, posted 10-30-2009 11:45 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3281 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 11 of 81 (533368)
10-30-2009 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by kbertsche
10-30-2009 11:45 AM


Re: fantasy
kbertsche writes:
No. My comments do not depend on "our limited understanding of physics." I have explicitly left room for new energy sources and new physics by saying that this "would require an energy source which is nearly infinite and essentially free."
For a society which is worried about energy costs and limited energy availability, sending large groups of people to colonize distant planets is pure fantasy. Doing so would require a new energy source, and we would no longer be a society which is worried about energy costs and limited energy availability.
There you go again, superimposing our limited understanding of physics to future inventions and discoveries.
Just like the people in the 16th century who couldn't imagine any other way to travel from continent to continent other than by sail boats, you are locked into this mindset that interstellar travel can't be anything other than projectile motion through space, which of course would indeed require an enormous amount of energy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by kbertsche, posted 10-30-2009 11:45 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by kbertsche, posted 10-30-2009 2:03 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3281 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 30 of 81 (533636)
11-02-2009 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by kbertsche
10-30-2009 2:03 PM


Re: fantasy
kbertsche writes:
Transporting -->matter --> at relativistic velocities requires -->energy. --> Transporting matter is the topic of the OP and the thread.
There you go again, trapped in 16th century way of thinking. After all, people from the age of sail never thought using fossil fuel in a certain way in combination of aerodynamics would allow people to travel from Europe to America in a day.
Basically, instead of allowing room for new innovations and discoveries on space-time travel that doesn't require the energy of an entire star, you insist on a closed minded approach that everything other than the standard model of projectile motion through space the way we currently understand physics is a fantasy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by kbertsche, posted 10-30-2009 2:03 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by kbertsche, posted 11-02-2009 4:00 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3281 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 31 of 81 (533637)
11-02-2009 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by kbertsche
10-31-2009 1:08 PM


kbertsche writes:
Yes, but it's not possible to accelerate hard enough and safely enough to reduce this to a few days. Jet pilots in pressurized suits can endure a few Gs (less than 10?) for very short periods.
And this is where the creativity of man comes in.
Imagine yourself and an object with a gravitational pull of 5 G pulling you toward it. Now, we accelerate you and the object at 6 G. You will only feel 1 G. Suppose the object is pulling you at 7 G and you both are accelerated at 8 G. You will still only feel 1 G.
Dwelling on this thought, suppose we possess neutron matter. The neutron matter is put in front of the ship. The more the ship accelerates, the closer you are automatically put toward the neutron mass. When you decelerate, the ship automatically pulls you away from the neutron matter.
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by kbertsche, posted 10-31-2009 1:08 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Michamus, posted 11-02-2009 10:33 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 33 by Aware Wolf, posted 11-02-2009 12:16 PM Taz has replied
 Message 51 by kbertsche, posted 11-02-2009 7:13 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3281 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 54 of 81 (533790)
11-02-2009 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Aware Wolf
11-02-2009 12:16 PM


Aware Wolf writes:
Are you actually in orbit around this object, or are you falling directly towards it?
Neither. Imagine you standing on the top floor of a skyscraper. Then both you and the Earth gets accelerated 2 G. You will only feel 1 G the opposite direction from the Earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Aware Wolf, posted 11-02-2009 12:16 PM Aware Wolf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Aware Wolf, posted 11-03-2009 8:23 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3281 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 81 of 81 (534901)
11-11-2009 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Aware Wolf
11-03-2009 8:23 AM


AW writes:
I suppose you would need the object to be of variable mass such that the delta in forces remains in the 1 - 5 G range or whatever's safe. Otherwise prior to acceleration you'd be experiencing the heavy Gs just from the gravity of what your standing on.
You're not using your imagination. I'm not talking about normal matter being the mass. Suppose we have a mass plate of something really really dense, like neutron matter. A ship sufficiently large enough (or rather long enough) could have the the mass plate at the far end of the ship. Any personnel could be placed in a movable compartment. The more the ship accelerates, the closer the movable compartment will move toward the mass plate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Aware Wolf, posted 11-03-2009 8:23 AM Aware Wolf has not replied

  
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