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Author Topic:   a poison for anti-evolution ID theorists
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 16 of 95 (57512)
09-24-2003 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by NosyNed
09-23-2003 4:11 PM


Since DNA facilitates the production of proteins, and groups of proteins are what build the various systems organisms, I am assuming by "family of proteins" that he means a group of proteins necessary to produce a system.
It is easy enough to change a system into something else by simply removing or introducing the production of certain proteins into an already existing "protein family."
A "NEW" "family of proteins" would then (and again I was running with an assumption) be a wholly new group of proteins that results in the production of a brand new system or observable phenotype not existing in the organism before that time.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by NosyNed, posted 09-23-2003 4:11 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Gemster
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 95 (57622)
09-24-2003 10:38 PM


simplicity
the only thing simple is your statement that biological chemistry is simple. I've been told that it is a fallacy to appeal to authority but I shall do it anyway. scientists have been trying to make simple life in the lab for a long time with no success, because the fact is that a simple cell is more complex than the space shuttle....
Klaus Dose:
More than 30 years of experimentation on the origin of life in the fields of chemical and molecular evolution have led to a better perception of the immensity of the problem of the origin of life on earth rather than to its solution. At present all discussions on principal theories and experiments in the field either end in stalemate or in a confession of ignorance." [From Interdisciplinary Science Review 13(1988):348-56.]

Replies to this message:
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 Message 19 by Niw, posted 09-25-2003 12:00 AM Gemster has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 18 of 95 (57649)
09-24-2003 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Gemster
09-24-2003 10:38 PM


I don't understand the point of your quote. Try it as simple logic (I know you're fuzzy on the logic, but we'll try it anyway.)
Is it your argument that:
1)Scientists have yet to understand all that there is to know about life;
therefore
2)The Bible is the literal Word of God?
I don't see how one follows from the other. Maybe you can help me out?

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Niw
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 95 (57651)
09-25-2003 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Gemster
09-24-2003 10:38 PM


Re: simplicity
Thought it was very old news... anyways...
Synthesis of polio virus...
BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | First synthetic virus created

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Gemster
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 95 (57657)
09-25-2003 12:19 AM


yo
synthesis sounds like a horrible lot of human intervention.
Did I mention the bible? what my origins quote meant was that if life is so simple then why can't anyone manufacture any?

Replies to this message:
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 Message 22 by Niw, posted 09-25-2003 12:44 AM Gemster has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 21 of 95 (57659)
09-25-2003 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Gemster
09-25-2003 12:19 AM


what my origins quote meant was that if life is so simple then why can't anyone manufacture any?
Maybe because life isn't simple, but rather, so complex that intelligent design isn't up to the challenge?
After all, you have to admit this doesn't look good for ID. If intelligent design is the source of life, the first time, then the second time around it should be even easier. Our consistent failure to create life through intelligent design is pretty much a clear indication to me that life isn't the result of intelligent design.

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Niw
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 95 (57663)
09-25-2003 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Gemster
09-25-2003 12:19 AM


Re: yo
Define life pls...

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Gemster
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 95 (57672)
09-25-2003 2:34 AM


yesireeeeeee
So we can't do with intelligence what nature can do by accident, even if we invoke nature to help us. Sorry my friend, not a good theory.

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Rei, posted 09-25-2003 2:44 AM Gemster has not replied
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 09-25-2003 10:03 AM Gemster has not replied
 Message 26 by Silent H, posted 09-25-2003 11:47 PM Gemster has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7012 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 24 of 95 (57675)
09-25-2003 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Gemster
09-25-2003 2:34 AM


Re: yesireeeeeee
It happens with GAs. I use them in work
The very first time Tierra was done, it shortened their starter algorithm to less than a third of its original size.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 25 of 95 (57741)
09-25-2003 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Gemster
09-25-2003 2:34 AM


So we can't do with intelligence what nature can do by accident, even if we invoke nature to help us. Sorry my friend, not a good theory.
Maybe then you could explain why engineers are using evolution to design circuit boards and jet airplanes that are superior to the versions created by intelligence? Some of the circuit boards are so complex that we don't entirely understand how they work.
I'd say my theory is looking better all the time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Gemster, posted 09-25-2003 2:34 AM Gemster has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 26 of 95 (57899)
09-25-2003 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Gemster
09-25-2003 2:34 AM


how about we stick to the topic gemster?
You sure are talking a lot Gemster, but saying nothing...
My opening post and the entire subject of this thread was a natural and random mutation leading to a new species. Despite the fact that no engineers created this life nor probably could have, nature managed to so all on its own.
Yet you come up with this:
"So we can't do with intelligence what nature can do by accident, even if we invoke nature to help us. Sorry my friend, not a good theory."
Please outline your most excellent theory for the origin of the plant mentioned in the opening post. If you can do this without resorting to evolutionary mechanisms send your theory to the French scientists researching the plant as well. If you can't then explain why we are supposed to believe evolutionary theory is so bad?
Scientists used evolutionary theory to track the progress of this plant and pinpoint its source. ID theorists were curiously absent, and apparently want to stay that way.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
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Warren
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 95 (58322)
09-28-2003 3:46 PM


ID theorists
Holmes<< ID theorists seem to come in two sorts, the kind that realize their only real hope is to limit their theory to abiogenesis, and those that are trying to replace evolutionary theory. >>
Please site examples of ID theorists that are trying to replace evolutionary theory.

  
Warren
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 95 (58330)
09-28-2003 4:33 PM


ID
Crashfrog<< Our consistent failure to create life through intelligent design is pretty much a clear indication to me that life isn't the result of intelligent design. >>
Two things. First, on what basis do you conclude that scientists of the future won't be able to create life? Second, based on your logic why doesn't the failure to create life via simulating natural processes thought to be at work on the primordial earth indicate to you that life didn't originate via a materialistic process?

  
Warren
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 95 (58333)
09-28-2003 4:42 PM


Holmes<< My opening post and the entire subject of this thread was a natural and random mutation leading to a new species.>>
Warren<< Randomness doesn't qualify as a scientific hypothesis. In order to qualify as a stochastic hypothesis, it necessary to define specifically what type of probability to distribution is being proposed and it is necessary to demonstrate that the distribution assumed is in fact valid. Unless the probability distribution being used is defined and validated, random mutation simply means ‘we don’t know what type of mutation will occur". It is not possible to generate testable predictions with a ‘I don’t know’ distribution assumption. Since there is no testable predictions there is no scientific hypothesis.>>
[This message has been edited by Warren, 09-28-2003]
[This message has been edited by Warren, 09-28-2003]

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Silent H, posted 09-28-2003 8:00 PM Warren has replied
 Message 32 by Mammuthus, posted 09-29-2003 4:23 AM Warren has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 95 (58362)
09-28-2003 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Gemster
09-23-2003 8:55 PM


Darwin had no problems with the eye
quote:
I even saw an article the other day that said that Darwins problem was that he didn't realise how simple the eye was.
I'm sorry, Gemster, what was Darwin's problem with the eye?

This message is a reply to:
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