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Author Topic:   What is the point of this forum?
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(2)
Message 81 of 139 (535975)
11-19-2009 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Arphy
11-18-2009 11:23 PM


Again, what in your athiest belief compels you to respect someone.
There is no "atheistic way of life belief," we all act the same regardless on where we stand on the "is there a god?" question. Your characterization of atheism is incorrect.
Also, attributing respect or morality to god doesn't give any more value or meaning to those virtues; what gives them any meaning at all is that we, by our own choosing, select them as good social skills. If you're saying that god told us to do this, then we're just following orders, and respect and morality are meaningless at that point.
I guess that's the difference between atheists and believers; you guys conviced yourselves that you have to follow orders, and we atheists (at least me) feel I can figure it out on my own, without a book telling me what to do. I'm more than capable of doing it because I know better.
If god gave me that capability, well cool, but it still means I chose to be respectful and moral (by my standards), not just following orders.
God may have given us the capabilities to be moral (we can argue that elsewhere) but we still choose to be that way on our own. Humans are social, and societies work best when there is order. We learned this on our own, living in different socities, and it's not special because many other social animals follow this defacto social skill.
Yes, you may respect someone, but you don't need to.
You need to in the same way you need to eat ... because there are consequences. Try not respecting people that you meet every day and see if you get along well; see if you don't need to be respectful to get along.
Do that for a month and see how it goes. Then imagine being a hunter gatherer and interacting within a social group - imagine if being respectful was needed to get along with other: Of course it was (and this is before the Bible, so the Bible can't be the reason).
And again, if god created us capable to do this, its still be our own necessity that we choose to be that way.
Its all us, we're the rulers of our own minds.
And I'm glad that my atheism helps me understand reality that way: no unnecessary invisible supervisors.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Arphy, posted 11-18-2009 11:23 PM Arphy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-19-2009 11:31 AM onifre has replied
 Message 100 by Arphy, posted 11-19-2009 9:19 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 90 of 139 (536032)
11-19-2009 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Hyroglyphx
11-19-2009 11:31 AM


Re: Atheist beliefs or atheist unbeliefs?
We all know that atheist beliefs include eating babies and pushing old ladies down three flights of stairs as a minimum prerequisite.
First rule about atheist club is: you don't talk about atheist club...
Both you and Perdition will need to talk to Tyler.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-19-2009 11:31 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-19-2009 1:40 PM onifre has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 127 of 139 (536213)
11-20-2009 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Arphy
11-19-2009 9:19 PM


So you have no problem with another group of people choosing a set of morals that might be in conflict with your morals?
What are you talking about, we deal with that every single day in a society as diverse as ours.
That's what we've always dealt with ... but, for us all to get along, we try to find common ground.
Great, what is wrong with anarchy?
Nothing, but are we talking about morals or political systems?
What's wrong with communism, socialism, capitalism, fascism, etc.?
Within all of those systems, individuals still treat each other with respect and common courtesy. Hitler had friends, so did Stalin, Mao, Castro, etc.
Anarchist can still be respectful and courtious to one another, the simply don't like government rule. What's your point?
Does it really matter that civilisation and the earth remain for another 100 years?
It does to me ... I have children, who will also have children and so on. What kind of a person wouldn't want to make things better for their children/grand children's future?
Humans continue to try to keep an orderly society, but if atheism is true, then what is the point?
I don't think there is enough evidence to say that god exists, that's all an atheist is. How is that different from you in the future outlook of our species?
And aren't you religious folk the ones waiting for the end of the world? Athiest aren't waiting for this, it's you Christians/Muslims/Jews that look forward to the end of times ... So I'll ask you the question, if there is going to be an "End Time" what's the point of continuing an orderly society?
Wouldn't a more disorderly society expedite the End of Times?
You guys are the ones that scare me, not people who find no evidence to believe in god.
I'm just stating that there is nothing in atheism that would make it wrong for a person to do harm.
But can't you see that you are misrepresenting atheism? Its not a "way of life," atheist simply don't find enough evidence to believe there is a god; we also don't find evidence for fairies, unicorns, etc. It has no bearing on how we interact with our fellow man and how we treat one another.
What makes it wrong to harm someone is that it's socially wrong.
Are you saying that you only do good because god is watching you? That's pretty sad. Are you incapable of knowing right from wrong on your own? I can understand if you're a child and need guidance, but as an adult? You should know better on your own.
Firstly, you could always fake it when need be.
Wait, first you said:
quote:
Yes, you may respect someone, but you don't need to.

Now you say you can fake it when need be ... So you admit that you'll need to be respectful. Good.
Now, whether you fake it or mean it is irrelevant; as long as society demands you to be and you recognize that I have no argument.
I personally think you'd be a sad individual if you went around faking respect, but as long as you do it, you're fine.
Just recognize that there is a social need for it.
Coming back to my original post, I don't think it is possible to make the claim that atheists are "restricted" to telling the truth.
No one is, we do it because, like eating and being respectful, there are consequences.
Trust is important to any social group - just ask anyone in the military who is in a unit. You MUST be able to trust these guys you're with. Also, talk to people who have been in jail, you MUST be able to trust the people close to you, your safety in both cases depends on it.
Now, if there is someone in that group that is constantly not telling the truth, you will lose trust in this person, which will cause that person to be isolated and defenseless. Putting him at risk for his well being; basically, he can die. So it would be in everyones best interest to be honest to one another for the simply fact that your life depends on it.
This is how early man had to deal within their social groups; anyone not trustworthy was out. So as to not be out of the group, we practice being honest. And really, that's all we can say that any of us do, we practice being honest.
Are you only honest because god tells you to be honest? That's pretty sad. Are you incapable of knowing right from wrong on your own? I can understand if you're a child and need guidance, but as an adult? You should know better on your own.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Arphy, posted 11-19-2009 9:19 PM Arphy has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 137 of 139 (536290)
11-21-2009 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Arphy
11-21-2009 3:56 AM


Again, in the grand scheme of things, as a little planet whirling round in space, why does it matter if we get along, or if we exist or not.
It doesn't matter, but to the individual it does, that's the point.
If you say it matters "in the grand scheme of things," then why have we only existed for roughly 10 million years, why not from the dawn of the first organisms on this planet ... where were we then? We obviously didn't matter then ... we didn't even exist.
But it does influence how you live your life.
Not at all, not even a little bit. Other than musing on this site with you guys, I rarely think about god or atheism. It's completely irrelevant to me if there is a god or not.
In no way does atheism influence my life.
However, lying clashes with the christian belief, and so it is hypocritical. Atheism has no belief, so therefore lying is not hypocritical as such.
And Christians lie, so you're a bunch of hypocrities. I don't see your point.
I have a conscience. However, you would say that our conscience evolved in order to survive. Right?
There's a flaw in what you're saying: there isn't really a place in your brain that you have a "conscience".
What we describe as conscience is our behaviour toward one another; it's not located in your brain it is how you act. You are aware of your behaviour and check yourself (this is what we refer to as "my conscience got the better of me") because you know that certain things are not good for society/community/groups/friends/families.
But then is it wrong for someone to go against their conscience in order to become successful?
They aren't going against anything, they're just not acting in accordance to our social rules.
For example:
If you stoned to death a homosexual today, you'd be considered a horrible human being by todays standards. Your, what you call "conscience," would make you feel horrible (it would get the better of you).
However, if you did it 2000 years ago in accordance with the OT, you were a regular religious person taking action as instructed to. You would not feel bad at all, in fact, you'd probably feel pretty great about yourself.
The similarities are, that in both cases you are following social rules, and going against them is considered moral wrong, in both cases.
For example, Genghis Khan and his descendants went around raping and pillaging, and in an evolutionary sense he was very, very successful leaving behind many descendants.
That's not how evolution works, bad example. Evolution takes place at the genetic level; you could have sex with a different woman everyday for the rest of your life and not affect the evolution of humanity in any way.
Your example is a conscience effort by Khan to do what he personal felt was right, to conquer. In fact, didn't the god of the OT instruct the Israelites to do the same?
I guess this is what happens to murderers, etc. even today. I would say it is wrong to go against our conscience because it is God-given. What would you answer? Remembering that going against your conscience can mean that you are more "successful" in an evolutionary sense.
Well, the problem is that it has no bearing in an evolutionary sense, you are grossly misrepreseting evolution - perhaps because you view it as a single "mechanism" instead of viewing it as an accumulation of various, independent mechansims.
As I explained, there is no "thing" called a conscience, it is just our selfawareness, awareness of others around use, and an inner need to maintain order in society. Doing wrong against these social rules is not in our best interest.
Like I also said, if god gave us this capability then cool. But it's still by our own necessity that we choose it.
You add nothing to it by saying god gave it to us; if we have freedom of choice, and free will, then it is by our own choosing that we pass on these traits to our children for the future benefit of society.
You wouldn't want to raise children in a society that didn't follow these rules, right? Well, even when everyone was Christian in most of the world, people still acted horribly. What then was the point of saying god gave them a "conscience" or told them to be good? They still choose not to act that way, but only because society didn't see anything wrong with what they were doing.
If god gave it to us it doesn't matter, what matters is that we choose to do it.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Arphy, posted 11-21-2009 3:56 AM Arphy has not replied

  
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