Why do Creationists have faith in a second rate creator?

They were surely based on an interpretation of reality? They are imaginary concepts used to illustrate an idea, as are all Gods.

You're playing both sides of the fence.You agree with the personification and that the stories reflect the times, but then you say: You do realize there's a difference between creating and management. Nature isn't our manager. "Genocide" can happen in nature through natural disasters or disease. Mankind has to manage themselves. The Bible shows how that group progressed.

quote:

---

I've really no problem with most of the other things you say - in respect to the Bible being adapted stories, etc. It's people who are literalists and seriously propose the character God as being some kind of ultimate being and the real creator of the universe that causes me a problem.

---

I understand that. But why?Your issues seem to be with moral issues not the actual creation of the universe. Like I said, creation and management are two different things.Do creationists actually condone genocide today? (Not that they think God was justified in the OT.)Quite frankly, you seem to be all over the place concerning what you want to discuss. You're very picky about how gods do what they do and about how people express their belief.Yes, you're entitled to question them, but try understanding the opposition. (I know, you don't care to study the Bible, etc.) The stories do make sense in the time they were written.There's a difference between supporting current hearsay or teachings, than supporting what the Bible is actually saying and the reality behind the Bible.Since you're not doing any work to support anything you're saying, you're bouncing around between the present, the past, fiction, and reality.Land somewhere and follow through.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

That is utter nonsense. I am not playing both sides of the fence! Neither am I the one who is jumping between past and present or reality and fiction. It is you who has tried bring all those things into the discussion!I will be clear:- I am not concerned with what people believed in the past. I am concerned with what people believe or understand about the world today.- Many people today still think that the Universe and the Earth were created by the character called God in the Bible. They think he is a real character.- I think I have clearly argued as to why I think there is no logical reason for anyone TODAY to think that the character God is a real creator of the Universe any more than any other creator who could be suggested - or has already been suggested (all the other gods of antiquity).- If the character God were undoubtedly a supremely moral and ethical being, unimpeachable, then you could argue that it must be a valid description of the creator if the creator has to be a supremely moral being. But I've made it clear how easily disputable it is that God was so supreme, therefore that argument for God being the creator does not stand.Please address the above points instead of going on about why people believed in God in the past.

quote:

---

- I am not concerned with what people believed in the past. I am concerned with what people believe or understand about the world today.

---

Would you actually address what I've asked you? Message 32
I realize you don't care about religion, god, or anything else that takes effort; but if you're going to make a thread, respond to what is presented.Do creationists actually condone genocide today? (Not that they think God was justified in the OT.)

quote:

---

- Many people today still think that the Universe and the Earth were created by the character called God in the Bible. They think he is a real character.

---

In Message 28 you said: I really don't have a problem with someone saying that they think the Universe was most likely started by some kind of intelligent entity, provided they stop there and admit they have no idea at this time what that entity could be. But when they try to describe that entity with a whole load of specific stories, which make little or no sense, let alone have no evidence to support them, then I am entitled to question them.You don't mind them believing, but you don't like the stories because they don't make sense to you. Just throw myths and legends out of our cultures. Why does that bother you?In Message 30 you state: I've really no problem with most of the other things you say - in respect to the Bible being adapted stories, etc. It's people who are literalists and seriously propose the character God as being some kind of ultimate being and the real creator of the universe that causes me a problem.So they believe the character in the Bible is a real being who really created the planet and the universe. Why is that a problem?

quote:

---

- I think I have clearly argued as to why I think there is no logical reason for anyone TODAY to think that the character God is a real creator of the Universe any more than any other creator who could be suggested - or has already been suggested (all the other gods of antiquity).

---

But you haven't supported your position, especially with all of the other gods of antiquity. You don't care about the past, but that is precisely why some consider the character of God in the Bible to be real. They go with the god they know.To get pagans to give up their gods, the Christians had to put Christian meaning onto pagan practices and symbols. Assimilate. (I know, you don't care.)

quote:

---

- If the character God were undoubtedly a supremely moral and ethical being, unimpeachable, then you could argue that it must be a valid description of the creator if the creator has to be a supremely moral being. But I've made it clear how easily disputable it is that God was so supreme, therefore that argument for God being the creator does not stand.

---

Only you have made that argument and haven't really supported why morality has anything to do with being the creator. Supreme doesn't mean ethical or moral. There's a difference between creating and management. (I know, you don't care about word meanings either.)

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

No. I don't think they condone genocide today. I hope they don't condone genocide that took place in the past either. But...I've heard a lot of them dodge the question about genocides committed by God in the Old Testament. And I've heard many of them claim that God is this almighty supreme being that we should worship. It is not clear what their position is, nor is it clear what your position is.I hope that my position is very clear. I don't see any logical reason for anyone today to think that the character God was a real creator of the universe because there are no valid credentials to his character that put him ahead of an infinite number of other potential candidates for the role of creator. I don't mind people CONSIDERING that there may be an intelligent creator. In fact, without a full knowledge of how the Universe came to be, I think it is right to consider the possibility of an intelligent creator. But it does bother me that they really believe in a specific character as creator when it is not substantiated.There is no need to throw myths and legends out of our cultures. But we should throw out the belief that characters in those myths and legends are actually real when there is no valid reason to think that they are. There is a big difference in understanding that something is a myth, as opposed to believing it to be real.Why does it bother me that anyone actually believes in God (or any other unsubstantiated creator)? Because I think people should be educated to think for themselves so that they properly appreciate the world around them. I think they will get more out of life if they appreciate the amazing facts that we are discovering. If everyone thought that the only way to fly around was to take a magic carpet, a broomstick or a winged horse, we wouldn't get very far. Science deals with realities that make a real difference to peoples lives. I think everyone should appreciate that, especially as they live in a world where science gives them more and more to make their lives comfortable and long-lasting. It's frankly an insult to those who are making our lives so much easier that people ignore their methods in favour of unsubstantiated myths. It's also outrageous for someone to be indoctrinated from birth into thinking that a character from an old myth is real. That is a form of abuse.I've no problem with using legends and myths for entertainment or to teach morals, etc. Provided people understand that is what they are. There are undoubtedly many characters and stories in the Bible that are good lessons for people to hear, and even good literature. I'm not saying throw everything in the Bible away. I'm saying throw away the idea that God is a real creator until such time as any evidence or reasoning suggests that he is a serious candidate.

And based on what do you conclude that the OT God is imperfect? This is why evolutionists seem full of themselves, neither wanting to know truth nor can stop ridiculing those who share with them, the truth. How do you support your nonsensical belief? And what attribute of God can your belief be reconciled to? His love? His Compassion? His Righteousness? I’m really interested. Because what the Bible says is in absolute contradiction to your belief: Romans 1 So, you seem to have a definition of perfect God (even though you might not admit it) And that definition is : Perfect God would have a perfect way of revealing Himself to people so that they could easily believe in Him, be saved and no one would suffer.Since you aim at the God if the Bible’s so-called imperfections, let’s look at the God of the Bible specifically. Reading the Bible, we understand that three major attributes of God are love, righteousness and justice:Love:
God is love- 1 John 4:8
"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins."1 John 4:10"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. --- John 3:16Righteousness and Justice:I am the LORD, who exercises kindness,
justice and righteousness on earth,
for in these I delight,"
declares the LORD. ---Jer 9:24O righteous God, who searches minds and hearts, bring to an end the violence of the wicked and make the righteous secure.-- Psalm 7:9Psalm 11:7 For the LORD is righteous, he loves justice; upright men will see his face.Because God loves human beings, He sent His Son Jesus Christ to earth to die in our place, as a propitiation for our sin so that Christ’s righteousness can be attributed to those who confess that He is God.John 3:16 :"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.1 Peter 3:18: For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.Because God is truth, He cannot claim to be perfect and show only one of His attributes. God’s holiness is the sum of all His attributes. To say that God shows love but does not punish wickedness is to say that God is a liar. However, the God of the Bible proves that He is not a liar, by saying that He will judge men who disbelieve/disobey: Biblical passages on God’s judgementRomans 3:23: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (meaning, have lost the privilege of eternal life)Rom 6:23: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.So, here we have God showing love and judgment. If God made it easy for everyone to believe Him, that would contradict His nature. However, the Bible says,that creation clearly testifies to God (mind you, does not testify to Christ, but God in general):Rom 1: 20: For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitieshis eternal power and divine naturehave been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.But some unbelieving men reject Him:21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.Therefore God:28since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.chose that they receive the due reward for their sins: eternal damnationObviously, some accept Christ as God. They receive eternal life. This way, God’s shows love and justice to the world. If you are looking for God to make things easy for this world, sorry, but this world is not about you or me. According to the bible, all things were created by Him and for Him Col 1:16. So ultimately what happens is for God’s glory. God takes delight in being Himself and bringing glory to Himself. Going back to the maim point, this is not to say that everyone who looks at nature and understands that there is a God will eventually believe in Christ. Even though God makes it difficult for all men to know Him, He makes it crystal clear to all men that He exists. Period. Whether He gives them the ability to believe in Him is in His hands (Salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit, the third person in the Trinity and happens to only some people.) Simply that the God of the Bible is one who doesn’t lie.

And based on what do you conclude that the OT God is imperfect? This is why evolutionists seem full of themselves, neither wanting to know truth nor can stop ridiculing those who share with them, the truth. How do you support your nonsensical belief? And what attribute of God can your belief be reconciled to? His love? His Compassion? His Righteousness? I’m really interested. Because what the Bible says is in absolute contradiction to your belief: Romans 1 So, you seem to have a definition of perfect God (even though you might not admit it) And that definition is : Perfect God would have a perfect way of revealing Himself to people so that they could easily believe in Him, be saved and no one would suffer.Since you aim at the God if the Bible’s so-called imperfections, let’s look at the God of the Bible specifically. Reading the Bible, we understand that three major attributes of God are love, righteousness and justice:Love:
God is love- 1 John 4:8
"Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins."1 John 4:10"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. --- John 3:16Righteousness and Justice:I am the LORD, who exercises kindness,
justice and righteousness on earth,
for in these I delight,"
declares the LORD. ---Jer 9:24O righteous God, who searches minds and hearts, bring to an end the violence of the wicked and make the righteous secure.-- Psalm 7:9Psalm 11:7 For the LORD is righteous, he loves justice; upright men will see his face.Because God loves human beings, He sent His Son Jesus Christ to earth to die in our place, as a propitiation for our sin so that Christ’s righteousness can be attributed to those who confess that He is God.John 3:16 :"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.1 Peter 3:18: For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.Because God is truth, He cannot claim to be perfect and show only one of His attributes. God’s holiness is the sum of all His attributes. To say that God shows love but does not punish wickedness is to say that God is a liar. However, the God of the Bible proves that He is not a liar, by saying that He will judge men who disbelieve/disobey: Biblical passages on God’s judgementRomans 3:23: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (meaning, have lost the privilege of eternal life)Rom 6:23: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.So, here we have God showing love and judgment. If God made it easy for everyone to believe Him, that would contradict His nature. However, the Bible says,that creation clearly testifies to God (mind you, does not testify to Christ, but God in general):Rom 1: 20: For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitieshis eternal power and divine naturehave been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.But some unbelieving men reject Him:21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.Therefore God:28since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.chose that they receive the due reward for their sins: eternal damnationObviously, some accept Christ as God. They receive eternal life. This way, God’s shows love and justice to the world. If you are looking for God to make things easy for this world, sorry, but this world is not about you or me. According to the bible, all things were created by Him and for Him Col 1:16. So ultimately what happens is for God’s glory. God takes delight in being Himself and bringing glory to Himself. Going back to the maim point, this is not to say that everyone who looks at nature and understands that there is a God will eventually believe in Christ. Even though God makes it difficult for all men to know Him, He makes it crystal clear to all men that He exists. Period. Whether He gives them the ability to believe in Him is in His hands (Salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit, the third person in the Trinity and happens to only some people.) Simply that the God of the Bible is one who doesn’t lie.

quote:

---

Because I think people should be educated to think for themselves so that they properly appreciate the world around them. I think they will get more out of life if they appreciate the amazing facts that we are discovering.

---

Other than the creator issue, what facts and discoveries do creationists not appreciate?
Evidence, not hearsay please.

I'm sure that creationists come in all shapes and sizes, but these would be typical examples of things they don't appreciate. You can check out various Creationist/Christian/Islamic websites if you want evidence that they don't appreciate the following:- Evolution
- Archeology
- Chemistry
- Physics
- Geology
- Cosmology
- Logic
- Freedom of Thought
- Freedom of Women
- Freedom of Sexuality
- Freedom from the concept of Original Sin
- Freedom from dictatorship

Hi Dr SingAll I've really got to say in response to your post is that you can't logically use quotes from the Bible to justify what it says in the Bible.We could all write our own doctrines and claim that they are The Truth. That is key to my whole argument. The doctine in the Bible would not stand out from an infinite number of other doctrines that could be written. It sound that, like so many, you have just been brainwashed into believing the Bible is The Truth because that is what it tells you.Edited by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, : Missed out a word!

Your message is a clear representation of a very childish, irresponsible mindset. I formed no doctrine of my own what-so-ever. I told you what the Bible says. Period. If I did, could you please quote it? Is this the reason why you do not believe the Bible?: Prove to me why you think it doesn't and i will prove to you why I believe it does. Edited by Dr. Sing, : added quote

I didn't say it was your doctrine. I said it doesn't stand out from an infintite number of doctrines that anyone could present. I proved that in my opening message. You could change the doctrine of the Bible by making very slight changes or wholesale changes. You could do this in an infinite number of ways. The bible would not stand out from the infinite number of other doctrines as being a truer or better account of reality.By the way, I'm only choosing the Bible because it is the religious doctine that most people on this site, including myself are most familiar with. I'm sure that the same principle could apply to any other ancient religious doctine. In fact, my argument is really just an extension of the old argument that not all the ancient religious doctrines can be a true account. At least all but one of them must be partly or wholly made up. I'm demonstrating that you can take it much further to the point where there is only a 1-in-infinity chance of any of them being a true account.I openly admitted that I had made up my alternative creators. (By the way, that doesn't actually mean that they are any less likely to exist than God.) I admitted that I had made them up partly to demonstrate my point, partly to demonstrate my honesty, and most importantly because I didn't want to inadvertantly start any new religions! But I could have witheld the fact that I had made them up. And I could have described the creator "Huf", who was once described to me. I have no more evidence for Huf existing than I do for God. Huf sounds to me like a much more moral, intelligent and physically capable entity than God. Hence my whole argument.In case you haven't heard of Huf, here is the descripion as told to me (the comments in brackets are mine to demonstrate why I think Huf is a "better" creator than God):HufHuf made the Earth in under a day (straightaway you can see she’s better than God).Huf kissed the Earth and life blossomed (a more beautiful beginning than God’s Dust n Ribs trick).Huf agrees we should be nice to each other (she knows you know that anyway).Huf loves you unconditionally (unlike God, who will burn you for eternity for breaking arbitrary rules, thereby rendering his gift of free-will either evil or pointless).Huf doesn’t care if you don’t believe in her or love her (she’s not an insecure, egotistical, genocidal maniac).Huf says there is nothing more to be said about Huf (she wants you to get on with life and not to disappear up the backside of belief in a ridiculous concoction of weird rituals that embarrasses your species).

quote:

---

You can check out various Creationist/Christian/Islamic websites if you want evidence that they don't appreciate the following:

---

No that's your job. Provide the evidence that supports that the majority of creationists actually don't appreciate certain facts and discoveries, not general categories or apologetics.Edited by purpledawn, : apologetics

Here's a link to a particular article on the Creation Research website.Sucuri WebSite Firewall - Access DeniedHere they make the ludicrous and illogical conclusion that because the fossil of a thorn was found BELOW a dinosaur fossil it means that dinosaurs and humans must have lived at the same time. Why? Because ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, thorns only appeared on the Earth after the "fall of man". So, as the thorn is in a lower sedimentary layer than the dinosaur, it must have been fossiled after the fall of man, when humans were on the Earth. So the dinosaur died after the first humans were on the Earth.I hope you can see what nonsense this is - using the Bible to prove...er the Bible. If you can, I've no problem with you, although I'm not really sure what kind of creationist you are. But unfortunately, this character John Mackay travels around the world giving lectures and making TV appearences talking this absolute shit. A lot of people are easily fooled by this nonsense.

The central question is getting somewhat lost here. JUC's imaginary examples served only to muddy the waters.Leaving aside quibbles over the definition of "better", the basic question is why anyone should consider the Judeo-Christian God over and above all other options. Why not worship Zeus, for example? It's a fair question.Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.