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Author Topic:   Has natural selection really been tested and verified?
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3916 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 39 of 302 (536409)
11-22-2009 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Wounded King
11-22-2009 6:23 PM


WTF?
Yeah it's the usual story. He says he wants to discuss natural selection, but only in sexual species (because there must be something making a Choice.) You thoroughly document natural selection, he says NO what he really wants to discuss is random mutation (because there must be something Driving the process.) Any minute now he is going to insist what you really are supposed to discuss is abiogenesis (because there must be something Starting it all.)
He's trying to prove "god" is in on it by sneaking Him in in his pocket and giving Him a good stroke every time he moves the goalposts. At the end, when he's got everything jusst riight, he's planning to whip Him out suddenly and give Him one more hard yank "In Conclusion" and shoot hot dogma all over everybody's face.
It's bible bukakke, that's what it is . . . .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Wounded King, posted 11-22-2009 6:23 PM Wounded King has not replied

Iblis
Member (Idle past 3916 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 61 of 302 (536611)
11-24-2009 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Dr Adequate
11-24-2009 7:52 AM


Bert: Mangos are an essential component of this blender!
Ernie: Uh, No they're not ...
Bert: Shut up! You're stupid!
* * *
Ernie: Seriously Bert, a component is something like a wire or a blade. A mango is just one use for it! I could put a papaya in, or a rutabaga, or ....
Bert: No you couldn't! You know why not?
Ernie: Why?
Bert: Because it's my blender!
* * *
Ernie: Mom! He keeps movin' the blender!
Mom: Shut up!
* * *
Ernie: Honest Bert, the mango isn't really a component ...
Bert: Fine! Prove it! Make me some mango juice! Using no mango!
Ernie: Shut up! You're stupid!
* * *
Bert: Mom, he keeps hitting me with various components of the blender!
Mom: Shut up!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-24-2009 7:52 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Iblis
Member (Idle past 3916 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 149 of 302 (537128)
11-27-2009 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Peg
11-27-2009 12:16 AM


Re: Why?
ok, so If i have a baby which survives, thats natural selection taking place???
Yes. Keeping in mind that by survive, we don't just mean, lives long enough to be buried instead of being used as an ingredient in shampoo. We mean, lives long enough to have babies of her own. Got it?
Now, if you have a baby with one big eye in the middle of her forehead, that's mutation. This is true even if she becomes hair product. See the difference?
Good. So, if you have a baby born with one big eye in the middle of her forehead, who lives long enough to have babies of her own, some of whom either have, or have children who have, one big eye in the middle of their forehead, then that would be evolution.
But if you also have perfectly normal babies, and they have perfectly normal babies, that's still selection. And if they keep at it, generation after generation, and eventually the whole township looks a lot like you and no one at all looks like your ugly neighbors, that's still evolution.
And if a big polar bear comes along one day, and starts eating every one up, and is doing fine until he gets to your house, and the one-big-eye people come out, and it totally freaks him out and he runs away, then that's natural selection driven by mutation.
So if the one-big-eye people decide the non-bear-scaring regular descendants are inferior, and make a practice of not breeding with them, that's speciation. When occasionally some perverse couple do it anyway, that's hybridization. If mutations or other gene incompatibilies pile up to the point where the two groups stop being able to have babies together at all, even if they wanted to, that would be macro-evolution.
However, if it were just the blondes and brunettes who decided as a rule not to interbreed, that would still be speciation. And if, as a result of the excessive inbreeding involved in a practice like this, a hemophilia gene piled up on one side and a tendency toward lesions piled up on the other, so that whenever someone tried to break the rules and crossbreed, their embryos just immediately bled to death before they could even become placentique; that would still be macro-evolution.
Yeah, that does imply that at one time under some conditions blacks and whites could be considered separate species (falsely, as interbreeding did continue, the offspring were just assigned by fiat to one group rather than the other, but let it pass for this example) and that now, on the other hand, they couldn't. That would be an interesting example of genetic drift.
Note that at no point in this story does natural selection change anybody's traits. All it does is fail to kill some of them before they can spawn. The new traits come in the form of freaks and immigrants and inbreds. Natural selection doesn't care, it wants to kill them all. The freak immigrant inbreds might be the ones who dodge better, or the normal native mulattos. It doesn't care, it doesn't even know the difference, it just keeps spraying its house with different concoctions and complaining that nothing seems to quite take the vermin out completely.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Peg, posted 11-27-2009 12:16 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Peg, posted 11-28-2009 12:42 AM Iblis has not replied

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