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Author | Topic: Boy shuns Pledge of Allegiance for Gay Rights | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 284 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I don't, specifically, see how the Judge's focal points come down on the larger issue (Pizer quote). Do I just not speak legaleze very well? Or is this court already not really looking at the important aspects? Well, the fundie clowns are going to try to pretend that there's a legitimate secular purpose behind banning gay marriage, rather than admitting that they're driven solely by hatred of their neighbor and a desire to appease the imaginary wrath of their imaginary god. They have to. They can't just come out and say: "the pursuit of happiness be damned, my imaginary friend really hates fags." I predict that their perjury on this subject will make Kitzmiller v. Dover look like a truth-telling contest.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Dr Adequate writes: I predict that their perjury on this subject will make Kitzmiller v. Dover look like a truth-telling contest. I'm actually kinda looking forward to reading through the eventual judge's decision (likely 150+ pages) and see how many times the judge has to make up some politically correct way to say "these people are retarded." The Kitzmiller/Dover decision had me laughing pretty good
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
"Currently, marriage is defined as a union between people of the same race. I don't see how that, as defined, must be applied to interracial couples." If it's a crap argument when applied to race, why does it suddenly gain legitimacy when applied to sexual orientation? Race =/= sexual orientation... Race is immutable while sexual orientation is not. And also, the Racial Integrity Act didn't define marriage, and it didn't say that people had to be of the same race, so its not the same argument at all. You can't have gays married with the current definition of marriage.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 801 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
You can't have gays married with the current definition of marriage. I beg to differ:
Definition of marriage marriage[ mrrij ]marriages Plural NOUN1. legal relationship between spouses: a legally recognized relationship, established by a civil or religious ceremony, between two people who intend to live together as sexual and domestic partners 2. specific marriage relationship: a married relationship between two people, or a somebody's relationship with his or her spouse "They have a happy marriage." 3. joining in wedlock: the joining together in wedlock of two people 4. marriage ceremony: the ceremony in which two people are joined together formally in wedlock 5. union of two things: a close union, blend, or mixture of two things "Civilization is based on the marriage of tradition and innovation." 6. card games king and queen of same suit: in card games such as pinochle and bezique, a combination of the king and queen of the same suit [ 13th century. < French mariage < marier (see marry) ] Where does that exclude homosexuals? Maybe in the religious definition of "marriage" or the biblical term, but not the term in general. Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.-Carl Sagan
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Where does that exclude homosexuals? Maybe in the religious definition of "marriage" or the biblical term, but not the term in general. Maybe not "in general", but I was refering to the legal definition:
quote: DOMA
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 801 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Touche'. I didn't even know that existed.
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.-Carl Sagan
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
People always bring up Loving v. Virginia and how they struck down the Racial Integrity Act as discriminatory according to the 14th amendment as an argument that DOMA is also discriminatory according to the 14th amendment.
But the RIA made it illegal for whites to marry non-whites, which is clearly discriminatory. Define marriage as between one man and one woman does not necessarily discriminate and is applied to everyone equally. We could come up with something else, say Contract X, that can only be made between people of the same eye color and that wouldn't be discriminatory either. Its just defining the terms of the contract, and it applies to everyone the same.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4032 Joined: Member Rating: 9.2 |
Race =/= sexual orientation... Race is immutable while sexual orientation is not. Evidence? Do you actually believe that the "pray the gay away" nonsense is true? Would you be able to make yourself attracted to men instead of women if you tried really hard? Was there a morning you woke up and "decided" that you'd be sexually attracted to the opposite gender instead of the same? Modern psychology sees sexual orientation as an intrinsic part of personal identity. Note that religion is definitely able to be changed, and yet it's not legal to bar a couple from marrying simply because their religious beliefs are different. Also worthy of note: DOMA has not yet been challenged in court, simply because until very recently there were no couples who had grounds to sue over it. DOMA itself is similar to Prop 8 in that it specifically excludes a subset of the population from equal treatment under the law...except that equal treatment is part of the Constitution, and so overrides DOMA. I expect the Prop 8 case to be a litmus test on how to expect an eventual DOMA lawsuit to turn out. If it ever gets that far - there are congresscritters who want to repeal DOMA, which would make court cases moot.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Your major point seems to be that the opponents of gay marriage managed to pass a law enforcing their preference. Is your point purely a legal technicality (since a bad law was passed it needs to be repealed first) or are you suggesting that it means anything more ?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Race =/= sexual orientation... Race is immutable while sexual orientation is not. Evidence? Do you actually believe that the "pray the gay away" nonsense is true? I wasn't thinking of the "pray the gay away"... I knew a girl in highschool who dumped my good friend and became a lesbian. She moved in with her girlfriend and they we're in love and the whole deal. Now she's married to some other guy and has 2 kids.
Note that religion is definitely able to be changed, and yet it's not legal to bar a couple from marrying simply because their religious beliefs are different. If a contract was created, lets call it "Best Friends", and it was defined so that you could only be Best Friends with someone who has the same religion as yourself, then I don't see that as discriminating against anyone.
it specifically excludes a subset of the population from equal treatment under the law But the law is not treating anyone differently, it applies equally to all.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 801 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Reading further on in the Wikipedia article you provided, it appears that this particular act/bill has been deemed to be unconstitutional, but no judge has wanted to see it in court.
Just by reading the first 3 lines, I deemed it unconstitutional. for the government to redefine marriage? On what grounds to they determine that it is only between a man and a woman? Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.-Carl Sagan
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Your major point seems to be that the opponents of gay marriage managed to pass a law enforcing their preference. Is your point purely a legal technicality (since a bad law was passed it needs to be repealed first) or are you suggesting that it means anything more ? Yeah, it was just a minor technicality. As marriage is currently defined, the state doesn't have to issue marriages to the gays.
quote: DOMA could be done away with and marriage could be defined as between any two people and then it would have to be given to the gays. But not right now. We'll have to see what the courts decide.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4032 Joined: Member Rating: 9.2 |
People always bring up Loving v. Virginia and how they struck down the Racial Integrity Act as discriminatory according to the 14th amendment as an argument that DOMA is also discriminatory according to the 14th amendment. But the RIA made it illegal for whites to marry non-whites, which is clearly discriminatory. Define marriage as between one man and one woman does not necessarily discriminate and is applied to everyone equally. We could come up with something else, say Contract X, that can only be made between people of the same eye color and that wouldn't be discriminatory either. Its just defining the terms of the contract, and it applies to everyone the same. CS, you're smarter than that. The miscegenation laws struck down in Loving v. Virginia were the same thing. Granted, a Hispanic person could marry a black person but not a Caucasian; however, everyone was able to marry within the confines of the law - blacks could marry, as long as their chosen partner was not white. So too with gay marriage - under Prop h8, everyone is able to get married...as long as their chosen partner is not of the same gender. Look at the decision for Loving v. Virginia.
quote: Tell me that doesn't carry direct parallels to the issue of homosexual marriage today. The Supreme Court has ruled on multiple occasions that the State has no compelling interest in restricting which consenting adults may or may not be married, and that the choice of whom to marry is reserved exclusively for the individuals. Homosexuals are being denied the right to marry the person of their choice by the State for no compelling reason at all. Even if it were granted that the application of the Loving v. Virginia decision to homosexuals were flimsy (and it's not), the State still has no compelling interest to deny gays the right to marry the partner of their choice. At all. None. Zip. Zilch.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4032 Joined: Member Rating: 9.2 |
I wasn't thinking of the "pray the gay away"... I knew a girl in highschool who dumped my good friend and became a lesbian. She moved in with her girlfriend and they we're in love and the whole deal. Now she's married to some other guy and has 2 kids. ...so you're telling me you've never heard of bisexuality? CS, some people are sexually attracted to people of the opposite gender. SOme are attracted to people of the same gender. Some people are attracted to both genders. The question is whether that actual orientation can be changed. I am not sexually attracted to men. Do you think that's somehow a "choice" on my part?
If a contract was created, lets call it "Best Friends", and it was defined so that you could only be Best Friends with someone who has the same religion as yourself, then I don't see that as discriminating against anyone. Then you're an idiot, CS. The definition itself is discriminatory on religious grounds. You may as well say that identifying a drinking fountain as the "black drinking fountain" isn't discriminatory because of the definition of the "black drinking fountain."
But the law is not treating anyone differently, it applies equally to all. That exact same argument was used in Loving v. Virginia, CS. It was wrong and bigoted then. It still is now.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 801 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
But the law is not treating anyone differently, it applies equally to all. Unless you happen to be the group it DOES apply to. Like the same sex couples who want to get married. This law has absolutely no bearing on *straight* couples. So, no, it does not apply equally to all. Unless by all, you mean all homo-sexuals? Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.-Carl Sagan
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