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Author Topic:   What gives God the right to be "holy"?
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 121 of 138 (537861)
12-01-2009 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by iano
12-01-2009 8:26 AM


Re: Blessing & Curses.
Iano writes:
But the good is all down to him.
Surely not if he created us? As far as I can make out, God creates us, endows with the ability only to sin and then punishes us for sinning! Where is the responsibility?
Iano writes:
What's on offer is that you become a partaker of him and that your will and his will harmonise in partnership.
Most constructive partnerships that I've come across don't involve one partner threatening the other with punishment.
It's certainly not the best way to stake a claim on moral authority....
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by iano, posted 12-01-2009 8:26 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by iano, posted 12-01-2009 7:06 PM RickJB has replied
 Message 123 by jaywill, posted 12-01-2009 9:43 PM RickJB has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 122 of 138 (537927)
12-01-2009 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by RickJB
12-01-2009 9:31 AM


Re: Blessing & Curses.
iano writes:
But the good is all down to him.
RickJB writes:
Surely not if he created us? As far as I can make out, God creates us, endows with the ability only to sin and then punishes us for sinning! Where is the responsibility?
We're also endowed with the ability not to sin. All our will has to do to achieve this is .. nothing. When it does nothing, God's will is the only will driving events. In which case, good will be done.
Our responsibility? Well, we aren't forced into having our will act unto sin. No, no. Our will has to first cut the ties (of conscience) restraining it from sin in order to be released into sin. Which makes us responsible for the cutting.
And so we see a choice for sinners which is set up differently than the classic freewill choice. Our sin-loving will silent or our sin-loving will active? What will it be?
-
Most constructive partnerships that I've come across don't involve one partner threatening the other with punishment.
It's certainly not the best way to stake a claim on moral authority....
It would seem you're more interested in rearranging my argument to construct appealing-to-God-knows-who soundbites.
On your own time Rick.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by RickJB, posted 12-01-2009 9:31 AM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by RickJB, posted 12-02-2009 4:49 AM iano has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 123 of 138 (537931)
12-01-2009 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by RickJB
12-01-2009 9:31 AM


Re: Blessing & Curses.
It's certainly not the best way to stake a claim on moral authority....
Well then, in all human history who would you submit displayed greater moral authority than Jesus Christ ?
And I don't see this matter of threat like you do. I am free to jump out the fifth story window of a building. Now once I make that jump I am not necessarily free to decide not to be pulled down to the concrete by the law of gravity. The law of gravity simply will do its thing regardless how I feel about it.
We are free to choose. We are not always free to escape the consequences of our choice.
Now if someone advises me saying "You know if jump out of the window you will fall down to the ground. You are likely to die."
What kind of response is it from me to say "There you go threatening me. You are a tyrant. You are a despot. You just want to threaten me to obey you. You rob me of my freedom, my great potential, my best possibilities."?
Isn't this a bit warped? This is warning of the consequences of becoming captive to the laws that are set in this universe.
There is a law of sin and death. God warning man of the consequences of such a law of sin and death is not His threatening of man. It is His care for man. We are free to choose. We may not always be free to change the consequences of our choices.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by RickJB, posted 12-01-2009 9:31 AM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by RickJB, posted 12-02-2009 4:56 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 126 by Larni, posted 12-02-2009 5:20 AM jaywill has not replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 124 of 138 (537949)
12-02-2009 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by iano
12-01-2009 7:06 PM


Re: Blessing & Curses.
Iano writes:
All our will has to do to achieve this is .. nothing. When it does nothing, God's will is the only will driving events. In which case, good will be done.
I don't think this refutes my conclusion. God, as you see him, is the source of all good and if humans use their God-given gift of free will they are doomed to sin and be punished. Why give us free will if its only outcome is to set us up for failure? It makes no sense.
Iano writes:
It would seem you're more interested in rearranging my argument to construct appealing-to-God-knows-who soundbites.
In your arguments you make references to "partnership" and "love" in combination with references to "punishment" and "eternal hell". Such a muddle hardly needs any rearrangement!
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by iano, posted 12-01-2009 7:06 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by iano, posted 12-02-2009 6:21 AM RickJB has replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 125 of 138 (537950)
12-02-2009 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by jaywill
12-01-2009 9:43 PM


Re: Blessing & Curses.
Jaywill writes:
Well then, in all human history who would you submit displayed greater moral authority than Jesus Christ?
I would agree that Jesus is a far more sympathetic figure of authority than the God of the Old Testament, but this serves only to amplify the tension between "love" and punishment that we see in Christianity.
Jaywill writes:
Now if someone advises me saying "You know if jump out of the window you will fall down to the ground. You are likely to die."
What kind of response is it from me to say "There you go threatening me. You are a tyrant. You are a despot. You just want to threaten me to obey you. You rob me of my freedom, my great potential, my best possibilities."?
I see your point, but this purely physical example gives no account of personal philosophy or morality.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by jaywill, posted 12-01-2009 9:43 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 126 of 138 (537952)
12-02-2009 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by jaywill
12-01-2009 9:43 PM


Re: Blessing & Curses.
Well then, in all human history who would you submit displayed greater moral authority than Jesus Christ ?
Buddha.
How are his teaching qualitatively different to Jesus's?
Now if someone advises me saying "You know if jump out of the window you will fall down to the ground. You are likely to die."
But in actual fact you god says "You know if you jump out of the window you will down to the ground. You are likely to die. But because you ancestor did jump out of the window in the deep, dark past you yourself must suffer the consequences of falling! Unless you bow down to me".
We are free to choose. We may not always be free to change the consequences of our choices.
We are free to choose to go to hell or not. That's not a choice, is it?
What gives your god the right to give us this ultimatum?
"Love me or go to hell."-paraphrased from Yahweh.
Edited by Larni, : Second and third point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by jaywill, posted 12-01-2009 9:43 PM jaywill has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 127 of 138 (537956)
12-02-2009 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by RickJB
12-02-2009 4:49 AM


Re: Blessing & Curses.
RickJB writes:
I don't think this refutes my conclusion. God, as you see him, is the source of all good and if humans use their God-given gift of free will they are doomed to sin and be punished. Why give us free will if its only outcome is to set us up for failure? It makes no sense.
From an earlier post of mine. Note the very first sentence and go back to that post if you want more detail on the kind of will post-fall humans (including Adam and Eve post-fall) have.
quote:
We haven't got free will. I was referring to the choice of Adam and Eve - who had. The positive consequence, for them had they chosen otherwise, was to remain under Gods blessing. They had no absolute right to it apart from his giving them a choice regarding it: "blessing/curses - you decide".
Message 116
The conclusion of yours you say isn't refuted is this:
RickJB writes:
Surely not if he created us? As far as I can make out, God creates us, endows with the ability only to sin and then punishes us for sinning! Where is the responsibility?
The refutation is that we don't have to cut the restraint which holds us back from sinning (conscience). We all detect this at work: the desire in us to do what we know to be wrong - and the restraint which holds us back urging us not to do it. If we do the wrong, it is only by wilfully suppressing the restraint, ignoring it, telling ourselves it doesn't actually apply in this case, etc.
Which is the point of our responsibility you were asking for.
How can you suggest that a wilful decision on our part, one which we are not forced to take (although we are tempted to) refutes the notion of our being responsible for the wilful decision.
Remember that if our evil-loving will doesn't act. If it remains silent in a particular instance of potential evil, then the restraint stays in place and the evil isn't done. No credit accrues to us for our will remaining silent in this case (you don't get credit for doing nothing at all) - God is the one powering the restraint that prvents the evil being done.
-
In your arguments you make references to "partnership" and "love" in combination with references to "punishment" and "eternal hell". Such a muddle hardly needs any rearrangement!
The reference was to "partakers" not partnership.
The God/man relationship is variously described in the Bible: soldiers (who's duty it is to follow commands), children (who ought to obey their parents), heirs (indicating a giver .. and a receiver who has done nothing to warrant parity/partnership)
We do evil for which we are rightly held responsible (see above). That evil rightfully attracts punishment/Hell. Love desires to restore our fallen selves so that we can partake of the divine nature (instead of our evil ones). I see no muddle.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by RickJB, posted 12-02-2009 4:49 AM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Larni, posted 12-02-2009 6:37 AM iano has replied
 Message 130 by RickJB, posted 12-02-2009 6:58 AM iano has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 128 of 138 (537959)
12-02-2009 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by iano
12-02-2009 6:21 AM


Re: Blessing & Curses.
If we do the wrong, it is only by wilfully suppressing the restraint, ignoring it, telling ourselves it doesn't actually apply in this case, etc.
I disagree. We don't have a core 'good drive' that has to be suppressed for us to act 'non-good'.
Our conscience is a result of our ability to experience empathy. An evolved trait.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by iano, posted 12-02-2009 6:21 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by iano, posted 12-02-2009 6:53 AM Larni has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 129 of 138 (537962)
12-02-2009 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Larni
12-02-2009 6:37 AM


Re: Blessing & Curses.
I disagree. We don't have a core 'good drive' that has to be suppressed for us to act 'non-good'.
Our conscience is a result of our ability to experience empathy. An evolved trait.
We talking from the point of view of supposing God exists and the Bible his word. The above steps outside that boundary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Larni, posted 12-02-2009 6:37 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Larni, posted 12-02-2009 8:28 AM iano has replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 130 of 138 (537963)
12-02-2009 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by iano
12-02-2009 6:21 AM


Re: Blessing & Curses.
Iano writes:
If we do the wrong, it is only by wilfully suppressing the restraint, ignoring it, telling ourselves it doesn't actually apply in this case, etc.
But didn't God create both the restraint and the will to break free from it? Didn't God himself create evil? You can wax lyrical about all the restraints you like, but all of this still has to be squared with the idea that God created everything.
It's a rigged game. God's "holiness" seems to amount to nothing more than the justification of a desire to punish!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by iano, posted 12-02-2009 6:21 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by iano, posted 12-02-2009 7:05 AM RickJB has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 131 of 138 (537964)
12-02-2009 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by RickJB
12-02-2009 6:58 AM


Re: Blessing & Curses.
But didn't God create both the restraint and the will to break free from it? Didn't God himself create evil? You can wax lyrical about all the restraints you like, but all of this still has to be squared with the idea that God created everything.
God created freewill and presented freewill with options. No evil is created in that. Then the freewill choose and in doing so created evil (evil cannot occur without an act of will). God cannot be tied to the creation of evil directly. A freewill stands in the way. A freewill holds responsibility.
Now I don't quite know how God can create a freewill whose will is completely independent from operating deterministically. But I am assuming for the sake of argument that God can and did this. If you don't want to assume the same the the discussion ends - you don't agree that such a thing as a freewill exists.
-
It's a rigged game. God's "holiness" seems to amount to nothing more than the justification of a desire to punish!p
Thus not.
Not that this conclusion makes anything but comic-book sense. Why would God be bothered with a transparent attempt at justifying a desire to punish - when he can wave a magic wand and we'll all truly believe he is justified in punishing.
Really, Rick
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by RickJB, posted 12-02-2009 6:58 AM RickJB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by RickJB, posted 12-02-2009 8:02 AM iano has replied

  
RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 132 of 138 (537967)
12-02-2009 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by iano
12-02-2009 7:05 AM


Re: Blessing & Curses.
Iano writes:
God cannot be tied to the creation of evil directly.
So from where does it come? Isn't God supposed to have created everything?
Iano writes:
Why would God be bothered with a transparent attempt at justifying a desire to punish - when he can wave a magic wand and we'll all truly believe he is justified in punishing.
Who can say? However, if we are getting into magic wands then why doesn't God simply banish evil from our minds and save us all alot of trouble?
Iano writes:
Really, Rick
Please leave out these patronising asides, they add nothing to the discussion.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by iano, posted 12-02-2009 7:05 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 133 of 138 (537969)
12-02-2009 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by iano
12-02-2009 6:53 AM


Re: Blessing & Curses.
But you are using the core 'good drive' that you call conscience as a point of evidence in this discussion.
You can't then say that this is an assumption we have to accept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by iano, posted 12-02-2009 6:53 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by iano, posted 12-02-2009 2:21 PM Larni has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 134 of 138 (537994)
12-02-2009 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by RickJB
12-02-2009 8:02 AM


Re: Blessing & Curses.
iano writes:
God cannot be tied to the creation of evil directly.
RickJB writes:
So from where does it come? Isn't God supposed to have created everything?
It comes from an act of freewill - freewill being a creation of God.
God creates freewill
God instructs x not be done (because it is against his will)
x is done in spite of God instructing it not be done.
x is done because a freewill is free to do what God instructs not to be done.
x needn't necessarily be done - the will is free not to do x.
x = evil, evil being defined as that which opposes Gods will.
x isn't created by God directly, it's created by God indirectly, via something else which God creates, freewill
the buck for x (insofar as promised negative consequences are laid at someones feet) stop at the freewill who chose to do x.
God, as I say above, cannot be tied to the creation of evil directly. The buck stops with freewill.
-
..if we are getting into magic wands then why doesn't God simply banish evil from our minds and save us all alot of trouble?
Because, you will see from the above, evil is an intrinsic part of what it is to be able to choose in the ultimate sense. All evil is, in essence, is choosing against God. And if God is intent on giving us choice, a magic wand cannot both provide it and not provide it.
In Adam and Eves case, their choice involved their being equipped with a classic understanding of freewill: they were faced with choice X or choice Y without any predisposition to go in either direction.
In our case our choice is modified to take account of the fact that our will is predisposed towards choosing evil. Our choice involves an act of our will (choice X) or our will remaining unexpressed (in which case Gods choice occurs: choice Y).
-
Please leave out these patronising asides, they add nothing to the discussion.
Sorry.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by RickJB, posted 12-02-2009 8:02 AM RickJB has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by caldron68, posted 01-02-2010 8:09 PM iano has not replied

  
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 135 of 138 (538000)
12-02-2009 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by iano
11-30-2009 4:39 AM


Children aren't born Christians. Neither are they raised Christians.
Wow, all those Sunday schools had better close then. I was under the impression that my parents were raising me to believe in Christianity but I was obviously grossly mistaken.
So by the time these children get to adulthood they can be unbelievers who'll have (hopefully) heard the gospel in appropriate manner.
Oxymoron, little bit?
Presumably the "appropriate manner" means what you believe to be appropriate.
Any Christian who majors on their being dirt on Gods shoe is a seriously mis-guided Christian.
You seem to be deeply confused. Throughout this thread you have been describing people as being hopeless sinners who have to be saved from their innate evil by the grace of God, and somehow this mythical primordial couple have caused us to be guilty before we're even born.
Message 114
There are no good people Rick. All people sin. All people wilfully do what they know to be wrong. All people deserve punishment for their evil doing.
If you came to my door telling me that I'm going to hell and stating the above, I'd be inclined to tell you to sod off and take your philosophy of hate and guilt-tripping somewhere else. I wouldn't use those words because it's rude, but I'd find a way to quickly make you go away. My husband used to wear his "Hammer of the Gods" Led Zeppelin T-shirt when the Christians came recruiting; another effective rebuff (I've heard) is to say, "I'm gay."
I don't need a concept of hell and I don't need "original sin" which needs atonement because while I am capable of treating people like shit, manipulating them, lying, stealing and so forth, I don't because I respect others. Would you rather your children acted kindly because they respected others, or because they feared your punishment if they didn't? Maybe . . . you might say that they grow out of the latter and into the former? Why are we still stuck with religions that treat people like children who can't tell right from wrong unless a parent is there to guide and punish? How patronising.
My wifes training to be a counselling psychologist. She see's unbelief bring lots of people in.
A few guesses here. There are people who feel left out when the majority of their community has one belief and they have another. There are people lacking spirituality in their lives and who would like to find it. IMO there are many paths in this direction, though I have a feeling I know which one you would tell them to take if they don't want to go to hell. Somehow I doubt you'd suggest they read the Bhagavad Gita.
Your study of Christianity should have instructed you on the chief pitfall of man: man going his own way, relying on himself and getting into trouble.
Going astray in life does not have to be labelled "sin." A person can accept that they've made mistakes, hurt people or hurt themselves, learn from that, and move on. No offended God or hell required.
I'm becoming more and more inclined to suppose you haven't actually studied Christianity at all.
Curiously, this is what I tend to hear from people when my beliefs don't square with theirs. Because it would be impossible for me to really know stuff about Christianity and reject it, right?
And here we have another example: you relying on you for arrival at truth. You relying on you to decide what is true and what is not. You relying on you to decide this god proved or that God proved.
I am a thinking person who makes decisions based on morals. I don't blindly check a list of religious rules to see if what I want to do is encouraged or forbidden. I really don't like being preached at by people who think they know better, which is why it's quite liberating to rely on "me." I believe that we are all part of the divine, so there's no guy with long white hair up there making rules for us anyway; those were written by the leaders of certain religious and cultural groups long ago.
Perhaps you've never been loved absolutely and unconditionally. In so far as you have been, can I suggest you worshipped the ground that person walked on?
You seem to have "worship" confused with respect and love. Someone who wants to be worshipped is quite likely a narcissist, and people who want to worship others are doing that due to unhealthy psychological need. You do know that we stopped being ruled by kings quite a while ago, don't you? These "king of kings" metaphors were coined for people who saw it as normal to worship a king (and indeed dangerous not to).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by iano, posted 11-30-2009 4:39 AM iano has not replied

  
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