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Author Topic:   Assume ID is true
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 43 (178140)
01-18-2005 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by MangyTiger
12-17-2004 4:16 AM


quote:
For example I mentioned in an earlier thread the bacteria which were genetically modified to produce human insulin back in 1982. I don't know if you can tell by analysing these bacteria that they have been engineered, but if you can that's the sort of thing I meant.
This kind of phenomena is testable in two areas: 1. twin nested hierarchies, 2. production of a non-beneficial system.
1. Twin nested hiearchies: this is a fundamental observation in biology. Both morphology/fossil record AND DNA similarities form identical phylogentic trees. A bacteria with genes identical to human genes (ie insulin genes) violates this twin nested hierarchy. Therefore, given our actual observation of an actual design process in humans, we should come to the conclusion that a design process will violate a twin nested hiearchy.
2. Production of a non-beneficial protein system: When asked how one could falsify evolution Darwin responded by saying that evolution would be falsified if a species were produced for the sole purpose of benefitting another species. Bacteria containing insulin genes fulfills this falsification of evolution. Therefore, if one is to detect design we should find the same thing. However, we don't. So again, trying to detect design in nature fails a second time when compared with observed instances of biological intelligent design.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by MangyTiger, posted 12-17-2004 4:16 AM MangyTiger has not replied

  
LDSdude
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 43 (178260)
01-18-2005 4:47 PM


Once again I must say that God used science to make the earth, and there is NOT A SINGLE THING IN THE BIBLE that contradicts the sciences God has allowed men to discover. Name something. Take the flood. If you read deeply into not just the bible, but what preachers of many faiths have said concerning the subject, there are scientific ways and means that God used to accomplish what he needed to get done.
Go ahead, give me something. Tell me something that takes place in the bible that physics and other natural forces of nature could not do. Seriously, I'll take you on on this.
I also notice something throughout this site. If a evolutionist says something against a creationist, other evolutionists will copy the previous speakers comments just to make themselves as a whole look smart and look like they know what they're talking about. This same stategy has been used over the years by evolution activists to replace religion with evolution in society, such as schools, television and government. Very clever. Do me a favor, don't just say something cause you feel like typing; if you have a new concept, point it out yourself!
One more thing. Someone reversed my idea of judging creation to say that I judge evolution too harshly. Get used to it. Evolution is a theory. NOT A FACT! A fact by definition is something that should be viewable or observable over time. Tell you what, put some hidden cameras in the jungle and if you ever see evolution before your very eyes, call it a fact.
Don't imply that I don't see the scientific reasoning behind evolution. I do see the reasoning. Just not the proof.

A Day unto God is thousands of years to man. 6 Godly Days of creation does not undermine the fossil record.
The fossil record, however, clearly undermines evolution. (Any questions should be asked, and every answer will be given)

Replies to this message:
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LDSdude
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 43 (178263)
01-18-2005 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by LDSdude
01-18-2005 4:47 PM


One more thing. You seem to be saying that since some creationists see diffently than others, it makes them an unreliable source. We're not fighting over HOW the earth was made, were fighting over WHO or WHAT made it. Creationist is a general term that simply means everyone in the category believes that one form of God or another created the world. There is not a single simple uniting code of beleif on the creationist side as there is on the evolutionist side. Maybe that's why we greatly outnumber you.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 19 of 43 (178265)
01-18-2005 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by LDSdude
01-18-2005 4:47 PM


quote:
Evolution is a theory. NOT A FACT!
With such a silly comment you show that you don't understand enough about science to even BEGIN a debate. Let me give you a little help:
A scientific theory is a unifying and self-consistent explanation of fundamental natural processes or phenomena that is totally constructed of corroborated hypotheses. A theory, therefore, is built of reliable knowledge--built of scientific facts
Carleton University
Most non-scientists are unaware that what scientists call "theories" are what most people call "facts". The general public uses the word theory to refer to ideas that have no firm proof or support; in contrast, scientists usually use this word to refer only to ideas that have repeatedly withstood test.
Science - Wikipedia
Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data.
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From the same site - this seems to sum up your understanding of the matter pretty well:
In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess.
Maybe someone who doesn't even believe in evolution would be of benefit at this stage:
There is a widespread misconception that good theories grow up to be facts and that the really good ones finally become laws. But these three categories of scientific description are neither directly related nor mutually exclusive. It often occurs that a single natural phenomenon can be described in terms of a theory, a fact, and a law -- all at the same time!
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This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 01-18-2005 16:59 AM
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 01-18-2005 17:03 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by LDSdude, posted 01-18-2005 4:47 PM LDSdude has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 20 of 43 (178267)
01-18-2005 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by LDSdude
01-18-2005 4:47 PM


quote:
Go ahead, give me something. Tell me something that takes place in the bible that physics and other natural forces of nature could not do. Seriously, I'll take you on on this
We need to start a new thread about this or finding an existing one - during the flood a)How do Noah breath and b) Why wasn't he burnt to death?
Are you game? Do you want to take this on with me? remember if you are talking science, so you can't use "god dun it"
(Note: I would ask that people DO NOT supply an answer to this - it's is an invitation for LDSdude)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by LDSdude, posted 01-18-2005 4:47 PM LDSdude has not replied

Replies to this message:
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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 21 of 43 (178273)
01-18-2005 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by LDSdude
01-18-2005 4:47 PM


pi = 3?
LDS: Go ahead, give me something. Tell me something that takes place in the bible that physics and other natural forces of nature could not do. Seriously, I'll take you on on this.
Let's start with a simple matter of geometry:
Chronicles II 4:2
Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
Thus, according to the Bible, pi = 3. Hopefully you see the problem with this.
Once you explain this away, we can tackle other scientific problems with the Bible, such as its claims that hares are ruminants or that the moon produces light.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by LDSdude, posted 01-18-2005 4:47 PM LDSdude has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 22 of 43 (178284)
01-18-2005 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by LDSdude
01-18-2005 4:47 PM


LDSdude writes:
Tell me something that takes place in the bible that physics and other natural forces of nature could not do.
1. Jesus walked on water. please show how this is possible also please show your calculations.
2. Virgin birth. Please show how it is possible for a female human to concieve without sperm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by LDSdude, posted 01-18-2005 4:47 PM LDSdude has not replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 23 of 43 (178844)
01-20-2005 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by CK
01-18-2005 5:03 PM


scared
Are you game? Do you want to take this on with me? remember if you are talking science, so you can't use "god dun it"
(Note: I would ask that people DO NOT supply an answer to this - it's is an invitation for LDSdude)
Well you tried.

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 24 of 43 (178846)
01-20-2005 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by LDSdude
01-18-2005 4:51 PM


popular
One more thing. You seem to be saying that since some creationists see diffently than others, it makes them an unreliable source. We're not fighting over HOW the earth was made, were fighting over WHO or WHAT made it. Creationist is a general term that simply means everyone in the category believes that one form of God or another created the world. There is not a single simple uniting code of beleif on the creationist side as there is on the evolutionist side. Maybe that's why we greatly outnumber you.
Seems an argument from popular belief. Count up numbers the most believers win.
This message has been edited by Flying Hawk, 01-20-2005 06:37 AM

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Replies to this message:
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LDSdude
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 43 (179111)
01-20-2005 8:59 PM


sure!
"Circle" of the earth is a poetic phrase used simply for poetic signifacance. Does, the "round" of the earth sound better? No. At least I don't think so.
Yes. It is possible to make the presence of God a testible fact. You must read the Bible thouroughly for yourself and pray to God to know if it's true. If you pray because you REALLY want to know, NOT just because you want to prove it wrong, and if you truly try to be sincere in your prayer, you'll recieve an answer in your heart. You'll feel it within your body. The Holy Ghost will let you know.
About observing a being changing DNA or something, I have to quote Sherlock Holmes (at least as best as I can remember) "When you elimate the impossible, whatever is left must be the truth."
So if Evolution, the idea that there is no God and we came from nothing is true, then there is no God. But remember that if there is a God, and he did create the earth, than we didn't evolve.
Also, Science is only what the scientist makes it. If all the people who write the textbooks have an agenda (I'm not saying they all do, I'm just making an example), then the world would have to trust them and except their word as fact, because, "Their the experts".
A THEORY IS A HYPOTHESIS BASED UPON WHAT WE ALREADY KNOW TO BE FACTS.
THERE HAVE BEEN NUMEROUS EDUCATED GUESSES IN THE WORLD ABOUT DIFFERENT THINGS, MANY TO MOST OF WHICH HAVE BEEN PROVEN WRONG. Whether by unknown variables, or by the simple problem of being unable to observe and record certain things, Theories are mere ideas that seem to make sense when you create them.
About the How did Noah Breath? Just because the earth is covered with water, doesn't mean there still isn't an atmosphere? I don't think I understand your question. And the why wasn't Noah burnt to death question? Are you reading the King James version of the bible? Please clarify.
Also, I doubt that Math systems were as advanced as they are today. Remember, the bible was written for the people of the day, and us. So the writers had to make it understandable to both peoples. Do you expect the bible to read- Pi equals therefore three and one tenth and four hundredths with five thousandths and....
Oh my heck, you guys. THE BIBLE IS A SPIRITUAL MESSAGE TO THOSE WHO WILL SINCERELY LISTEN. IT IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC ALMANAC! There are poems that say light comes from the moon. Read a scietific book if your looking for answers to science questions, but for an ancient document that contains writings from throughout the ages, with an enlightening spiritual message, read the bible.
The walked on water thing. It says in the bible that the disciples were having trouble rowing do to a windy gail. Does it even for a second cross your mind that a God, YOUR creator, who has priesthood with infinate power, could not use wind to keep himself up? Or ice? Or make his atom density very light? Use common sense and stop calling on me to answer all of your questions instead of trying to put an effort into it.
Jesus had a REAL body. He was a REAL person. Don't you think he had to be created in the womb through REAL processes. I'm not saying she wasn't a virgin, but God could have placed a single celled sperm in the womb to help her give birth. I am very uneasy about this particulat topic because pro-creation is a very sacred thing, so I ask that you try to if you could avoid it. Everything else is fine, but I do not like to "cast pearls before swine," or discuss openly sacred things.
And 80-90% of the American population believes in a God of one sort or another. Yippeee! We win!

A Day unto God is thousands of years to man. 6 Godly Days of creation does not undermine the fossil record.
The fossil record, however, clearly undermines evolution. (Any questions should be asked, and every answer will be given)

Replies to this message:
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 Message 30 by NosyNed, posted 01-20-2005 9:13 PM LDSdude has replied
 Message 36 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-21-2005 11:14 AM LDSdude has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 26 of 43 (179114)
01-20-2005 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by LDSdude
01-20-2005 8:59 PM


Re: sure!
quote:
Yes. It is possible to make the presence of God a testible fact. You must read the Bible thouroughly for yourself and pray to God to know if it's true. If you pray because you REALLY want to know, NOT just because you want to prove it wrong, and if you truly try to be sincere in your prayer, you'll recieve an answer in your heart. You'll feel it within your body. The Holy Ghost will let you know.
Can I ask what you knowledge of science is? it seem to be very limited; you don't seem to understand what the term testible means.
quote:
About the How did Noah Breath? Just because the earth is covered with water, doesn't mean there still isn't an atmosphere? I don't think I understand your question. And the why wasn't Noah burnt to death question? Are you reading the King James version of the bible? Please clarify.
yes - the king james version - I am talking about ramifications of a flood. I want to know why he was not burnt to death by all the energy released in the flood (we can discuss the pressure problem later).
If you think you can tackle it - there are a number of thread we can use.
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 01-20-2005 21:07 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 27 of 43 (179115)
01-20-2005 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by LDSdude
01-20-2005 8:59 PM


Re: sure!
But remember that if there is a God, and he did create the earth, than we didn't evolve.
Where do you get that? The Pope disagrees. The Anglican Church disagrees. The Presbyterian, USA and Episcopal Church disagree. Jar has a whole list of churches that disagree, and he and several other Christians on this board disagree! Where to you get off putting words in all their mouths?
And hi! Welcome to EvC!

This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 28 of 43 (179116)
01-20-2005 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by tsig
01-20-2005 6:33 AM


Outnumber?
Maybe that's why we greatly outnumber you.
Who outnumbers who? What numbers are you using? Even in the benighted USofA I'm not sure you are in the majority. Certainly NOT in the educated western world.
BTW I'm using "creationist" here to mean the biblical literalist version of the word. Most of us aren't worried about those who believe that a god created the universe but aren't arrogant enough to say how He did.

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Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 29 of 43 (179119)
01-20-2005 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by NosyNed
01-20-2005 9:09 PM


Re: Outnumber?
Ned, you know what I don't understand about this numbers thing?
When one is discussing size of a belief system everyone who declares themselves xian is counted.
When one is discussing varying beliefs of xians, all of a sudden many are not "true xians".
We have had posters on this forum who have used both these arguments at one time or another.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 30 of 43 (179120)
01-20-2005 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by LDSdude
01-20-2005 8:59 PM


No problem then
Oh my heck, you guys. THE BIBLE IS A SPIRITUAL MESSAGE TO THOSE WHO WILL SINCERELY LISTEN. IT IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC ALMANAC! There are poems that say light comes from the moon. Read a scietific book if your looking for answers to science questions, but for an ancient document that contains writings from throughout the ages, with an enlightening spiritual message, read the bible.
On this we agree. Most of us here don't have a problem with this view.
However, there are many here (and I thought you were one of them) that suggest that the Bible does trump science in those areas that are not a spiritual concern. And, worse, think they should have some say about what is taught in schools.
You make the above comment then mention Noah. The flood did not happen! That is a very solid scientific conclusion. If you think the Bible is not a science textbook then why bring up something about geology? The Bible is wrong about geology and, as you point out, it doesn't matter to the important message of the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by LDSdude, posted 01-20-2005 8:59 PM LDSdude has replied

Replies to this message:
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