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Author Topic:   Landmark gay marriage trial starts today in California
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 601 of 759 (702961)
07-13-2013 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 600 by Faith
07-12-2013 11:54 PM


Re: Pointy Sticks
marriage is a Creation Ordinance, established at the Creation.
Can I get a copy of that?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 600 by Faith, posted 07-12-2013 11:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 604 by Faith, posted 07-13-2013 12:07 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 602 of 759 (702962)
07-13-2013 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 600 by Faith
07-12-2013 11:54 PM


Re: Pointy Sticks
No, it's not in the Mosaic Law, marriage is a Creation Ordinance, established at the Creation.
But without telling anyone not to have multiple wives and concubines. I mean, it's something he could have mentioned, isn't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 600 by Faith, posted 07-12-2013 11:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by Faith, posted 07-13-2013 12:06 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 603 of 759 (702964)
07-13-2013 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 602 by Dr Adequate
07-13-2013 12:03 AM


Re: Pointy Sticks
They were taught the Creation Ordinances, which were after all written down by Moses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-13-2013 12:03 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 606 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-13-2013 2:25 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 604 of 759 (702965)
07-13-2013 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 601 by Theodoric
07-13-2013 12:02 AM


Re: Pointy Sticks
It's Genesis 2:24, you can make your own copy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by Theodoric, posted 07-13-2013 12:02 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 605 of 759 (702968)
07-13-2013 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 598 by Faith
07-12-2013 11:51 PM


Re: Can't we just go back to "traditional" marriages?
Doesn't occur to you that this was a mercy to the victims, who would otherwise be abandoned to a horrible fate, does it?
Lets just think about the things God could have said instead:
1. If your daughter is raped, don't consider her worthless as though she is now a used up commodity.
2. Men who would rape women should be punished with more than just a fine to cover the "cost" to the girls father.
3. In general, victims of crimes shouldn't be punished worse than their assailants. In fact, they shouldn't' be punished at all!
You speak of MERCY Faith? Really?
And yet at the moment that God is speaking most directly to humanity he can only offer an improvement of one half-step to the stone age morality that would have otherwise killed an innocent human being for the crime of being a victim?
Is this your beloved "tradition"? Why don't we do the same today? Are we lost to our corruption?

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by Faith, posted 07-12-2013 11:51 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 606 of 759 (702969)
07-13-2013 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 603 by Faith
07-13-2013 12:06 AM


Re: Pointy Sticks
They were taught the Creation Ordinances, which were after all written down by Moses.
They were not taught that polygamy or concubinage were sinful, were they? They were taught that it was sinful to wear mixed fabric, and to eat lobsters (but not locusts), and to interplant two kinds of crops, but somehow not a sanction, not a mention, not a whisper, against polygamy, or concubinage ... or pedophilia ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 603 by Faith, posted 07-13-2013 12:06 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 607 by Faith, posted 07-13-2013 3:17 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 607 of 759 (702971)
07-13-2013 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 606 by Dr Adequate
07-13-2013 2:25 AM


Re: Pointy Sticks
Sure they were taught it. The Books of Moses were read to the people, so they couldn't miss it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-13-2013 2:25 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 608 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2013 4:14 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 608 of 759 (702972)
07-13-2013 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 607 by Faith
07-13-2013 3:17 AM


Re: Pointy Sticks
Well where is it? Genesis 2:24 doesn't say that polygamy is sinful. The polygamy of the patriarchs isn't condemned. Surely the actual message of Genesis is to condone polygamy, not condemn it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 607 by Faith, posted 07-13-2013 3:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 609 of 759 (702973)
07-13-2013 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 590 by Faith
07-12-2013 11:01 PM


Re: Jar's misrepresentations of the Hagar story
But again, she was sent back to be one of Abe's three wives.
God blessed Abe even though he was a polygamist.
That was also true for most of the Patriarch and for other characters like King David.
I misrepresented nothing.
Hagar left.
God sent her back.
It really is that simple.
Further, when a man bought a wife, whether it was the first wife or the thousandth wife, she left her family and went with him, just like the goats he bought, the camels he bought, the cattle he bought. They became one flesh. And the one flesh did not refer to procreation or having kids. Abe and Sara were husband and wife even though as you say, she was infertile.
God didn't seem to have any problem with polygamy.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 590 by Faith, posted 07-12-2013 11:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 610 by Faith, posted 07-13-2013 10:19 AM jar has replied
 Message 614 by NoNukes, posted 07-13-2013 11:32 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 610 of 759 (702975)
07-13-2013 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 609 by jar
07-13-2013 9:14 AM


Re: Jar's misrepresentations of the Hagar story
But again, she was sent back to be one of Abe's three wives.
Abraham had only Sarah at that point, there was no third wife, and Hagar was sent back to Sarah so there is no reason to suppose that she went back as Abraham's wife. A clue might be that she had no other children, only Ishmael.
That was also true for most of the Patriarch and for other characters like King David.
I misrepresented nothing.God blessed Abe even though he was a polygamist.
Yes, God blessed many sinners, but they were still sinners, blessed because of their faith in God. Solomon was the worst but God blessed him greatly too. Yet God didn't just overlook the sin. It was only after Solomon's reign that the consequence of his sin came as judgment against the nation.
Hagar left.
God sent her back.
It really is that simple.
Hardly. You did misrepresent what I pointed out that you misrepresented. She didn't go back to "Abe" as you claimed, and even going back to Sarah probably did not mean she went back as his wife. You implied that Sarah mistreated her without cause when it was Hagar's disrespect of her that was the cause. And you said God commanded polygamy which is untrue.
Further, when a man bought a wife, whether it was the first wife or the thousandth wife, she left her family and went with him, just like the goats he bought, the camels he bought, the cattle he bought. They became one flesh. And the one flesh did not refer to procreation or having kids. Abe and Sara were husband and wife even though as you say, she was infertile.
One flesh is ultimately expressed in children but it exists without children. And what's the point you are making about wives and cattle? Abraham bought no wives. Where is that in scripture? Hagar was his wife's maidservant and it was his wife who gave her to him in order to have a child.
God didn't seem to have any problem with polygamy.
Nor other sins. The "problem" isn't seen until the judgment against them comes, down the road a way.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by jar, posted 07-13-2013 9:14 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 611 by jar, posted 07-13-2013 10:44 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 611 of 759 (702976)
07-13-2013 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 610 by Faith
07-13-2013 10:19 AM


Re: Jar's misrepresentations of the Hagar story
How is Hagar not having more children (something we don't know anyway) a sign she was not one of Abe's wives?
Faith writes:
Yes, God blessed many sinners, but they were still sinners, blessed because of their faith in God. Solomon was the worst but God blessed him greatly too. Yet God didn't just overlook the sin. It was only after Solomon's reign that the consequence of his sin came as judgment against the nation.
So once again you try to sell an evil God who punishes others for sins they did not commit.
Got it.
And Hagar did go back to Abe. Sara was Abe's property.
Faith writes:
One flesh is ultimately expressed in children but it exists without children. And what's the point you are making about wives and cattle? Abraham bought no wives. Where is that in scripture? Hagar was his wife's maidservant and it was his wife who gave her to him in order to have a child.
Sorry but that is nothing but nonsense. One flesh is expressed in children even if there are no children? Bullshit.
And you still have not shown a single example of God objecting to polygamy or suggesting monogamy or even objecting to screwing out of marriage.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 610 by Faith, posted 07-13-2013 10:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 612 by Faith, posted 07-13-2013 11:00 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 612 of 759 (702977)
07-13-2013 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 611 by jar
07-13-2013 10:44 AM


Re: Jar's misrepresentations of the Hagar story
Sara is never described as Abraham's property nor treated as if she were Abraham's property. He always treats her with respect as his wife.
And yes we don't know for sure whether Hagar went back as Abraham's wife but her not having more children is a good sign she may not have. She was in Sarah's hands, not Abraham's, as Abraham said. There was only the one reason for her to be his wife in the first place, to have the child she did have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 611 by jar, posted 07-13-2013 10:44 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 613 by jar, posted 07-13-2013 11:09 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 617 by NoNukes, posted 07-13-2013 11:58 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 613 of 759 (702978)
07-13-2013 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 612 by Faith
07-13-2013 11:00 AM


Re: Jar's misrepresentations of the Hagar story
So Sara who was infertile and Hagar were both Abe's wives.
And as to wives being property I hope you don't want to claim that that is not how the Bible describes them or treats them?
And you still have not shown a single example of God objecting to polygamy.
And thank God we are moving towards Christian Gay Marriage and further and further away from Christian Law.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by Faith, posted 07-13-2013 11:00 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 614 of 759 (702980)
07-13-2013 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 609 by jar
07-13-2013 9:14 AM


Re: Jar's misrepresentations of the Hagar story
But again, she was sent back to be one of Abe's three wives.
The text in Genesis 16:6-10 does not agree with your interpretation. Faith's seems to be more faithful to the text.
Hagar was sent back to submit to Sarai who clearly did not want Hagar anywhere near her husband anymore. Abram had also yielded control of Hagar to Sarai before Hagar left. I think there is a clear implication that Hagar was not going to be treated like a wife anymore.
Genesis 16:6-10
quote:
But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thine hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.
7 And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
9 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
10 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Not that it makes Hagar's treatment was any less despicable, but it seems clear that she was out of the second wife business. Not only was she under Sarai, but even afterwards, both she and her soon were booted out of the house.
You can of course argue that I am reading somethings in between the lines that are not explicitly there, but let me suggest that your interpretation requires reading in opposite things that are against what the text actually says.
Abe and Sara were husband and wife even though as you say, she was infertile.
Yes, but apparently God fixed that up in the very next Chapter which I would think undercuts your point a bit.
God didn't seem to have any problem with polygamy.
Perhaps not, but the particular argument you've chosen is not all that great.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by jar, posted 07-13-2013 9:14 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 615 by jar, posted 07-13-2013 11:47 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 615 of 759 (702985)
07-13-2013 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 614 by NoNukes
07-13-2013 11:32 AM


Re: Jar's misrepresentations of the Hagar story
I think it is certainly sufficient considering that no where in the Bible have I found God objecting to polygamy, and that is the point.
It is irrelevant to the topic though. God's views on marriage are totally irrelevant to the issue of same sex marriage in the US.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by NoNukes, posted 07-13-2013 11:32 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
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