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Author Topic:   What is design ?
monkenstick
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 24 (14797)
08-03-2002 10:37 PM


I don't know the answer, but I've been told by a creationist that apparently this is design;
Human Urate Oxidase Psuedogene CDS (exons 1-8)
atggcccact accataacaa ctataaaaaga atgatgagg tggagtttgt ccgaactggc tatgggaagg aaatggtaaa agttctccat attcagtgag atggaaaata tcacagcatt aaagaggtgg caacttcagt gcaacttact ctaagttcca aaaaagatta cctgcatgga gataattcag acatcatccc tacagacacc atcaagaaca cagttcatgt cttggcaaag tttaaagaa atcaaaagca tagaagcctt tggtgtgaat atttgtgagc attttctttc ttcttttaac catgtaatcc gagctcaagt ctacatggaa gaaatccctt ggaagcatct tggaaag aatggagtta agcatgtcca tgcatttatt cacactccca ctggaacaca cttctgtgaa gttgaacagc tgagaagt ggaccccaag tcattcattc tggaatcaaa gacctcaagg tcttgaaaac aacacagtct ggatttgaag gtttcatcaa ggaccagttc actaccctcc ctgaggtgaa ggactgatgc tttgccaccc aagtgtactg caagtggcgc taccaccagt gcagggatgt ggacttcaag gctacctgg gacaccattc gggaccttgt catggagaaa tctgctgggc cctatgacaa aggtgaatac ttgacctctg tgcagaagac cctctgtgat atccaggtgc tctccctgag ccgagttcct gcg atagaagata tggaaatcag cctgccaaac attcactact tcaacataga catgtccaaa atgggtctga tcaacaagga agaggtcttgctgc cattagacaa tccatatgga aaaattactg gtacagtcaa gaggaagttg
tcttcaagac tgtga
Translation:
Met A H Y H N N Y K K N D E V E F V R T G Y G K E Met V K V L H I Q Stop D G K Y H S I K E V A T S V Q L T L S S K K D Y L H G D N S D I I P T D T I K N T V H V L A K F K E I K S I E A F G V N I C E H F L S S F N H V I R A Q V Y Met E E I P W K H L G K N G V K H V H A F I H T P T G T H F C E V E Q L R S G P Q V I H S G I K D L K V L K T T Q S G F E G F I K D Q F T T L P E V K D Stop C F A T Q V Y C K W R Y H Q C R D V D F K A T W D T I R D L V Met E K S A G P Y D K G E Y L T S V Q K T L C D I Q V L S L S R V P A I E D Met E I S L P N I H Y F N I D Met S K Met G L I N K E E V L L P L D N P Y G K I T G T V K R K L S S R L Stop
I don't get it, I can't see the design in it. But according to the creationist I was arguing with, an intelligent designer did this

Replies to this message:
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 Message 9 by Tranquility Base, posted 08-04-2002 3:33 AM monkenstick has not replied

  
monkenstick
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 24 (14847)
08-05-2002 4:03 AM


umm, tranquility, did you look at the translation of the pseudogene. Did you notice the premature stop codons?
You underestimate or misunderstand what i'm saying

Replies to this message:
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monkenstick
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 24 (14888)
08-06-2002 4:44 AM


oh, I guess I should post the other half of the information
Chimpanzee Urate Oxidase Psuedogene (exons 1-8)
atggcccact accataacaa ctataaaaag aatgatgagg tggagtttgt ccgaactggc tatgggaagg atatggtaaa agttctccat attcagtgag atggaaaata tcacagcatt aaagaggtgg caacttcagt gcaacttact ctaagttcca aaaaagatta cctgcatgga gataattcag acatcatccc tacagacacc atcaagaaca cagttcatgt cttggcaaag tttaaagaa atcaaaagca tagaagcctt tggtgtgaat atttgtgagc attttctttc ttcttttaac catgtaatcc gagctcaagt ctatgtggaa gaaatccctt ggaagcatct tgaaaag aatggagtta agcatgtcca tgcatttatt cacactccca ctggaacaca cttcggtgaa gttgaacagc tgagaagt ggaccccaag tcattcattc tggaatcaaa gacctcaagc tcttgaaaac aacacagtct ggatttgaag gtttcatcaa ggaccagttc actaccctcc ctgaggtgaa ggactgatgc tttgccaccc aagtgtactg caagtgacgc taccaccagt gcagggatgt ggacttcaag gctacctgg gacaccattc gggaccttgt catggagaaa tctgctgggc cctatgacaa agatgaatac tcgccctctg tgcagaagac cctctgtgat atccaggtgc tctccctgag ccgagttcct gcg atagaagata tggaaatcag cctgccaaac attcactact tcaacataga catgtccaaa atgggtctga tcaacaagga agag gtcttgctgc cattagacaa tccatatgga aaaattactg gtacagtcaa gaggaagttg tcttcaagac tgtga
BLAST Pairwise Alignment of chimp/human urate oxidase pseudogene
Score = 1702 bits (885), Expect = 0.0
Identities = 905/915 (98%)
Strand = Plus / Plus
I was told the homology shown in the BLAST alignment was due to common design rather than common ancestry. Design implies function. Where is the function in the pseudogenes, they clearly don't function as urate oxidase anymore. So is there some new function? what kind of "intelligent" designer creates new function by crippling existing genes? Its illogical.

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monkenstick
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 24 (14897)
08-06-2002 10:15 AM


Chimpanzee Urate Oxidase Psuedogene translated:
Met A H Y H N N Y K K N D E V E F V R T G Y G K D Met V K V L H I Q Stop D G K Y H S I K E V A T S V Q L T L S S K K D Y L H G D N S D I I P T D T I K N T V H V L A K F K E I K S I E A F G V N I C E H F L S S F N H V I R A Q V Y V E E I P W K H L E K N G V K H V H A F I H T P T G T H F G E V E Q L R S G P Q V I H S G I K D L K L L K T T Q S G F E G F I K D Q F T T L P E V K D Stop C F A T Q V Y C K Stop R Y H Q C R D V D F K A T W D T I R D L V Met E K S A G P Y D K D E Y S P S V Q K T L C D I Q V L S L S R V P A I E D Met E I S L P N I H Y F N I D Met S K Met G L I N K E E V L L P L D N P Y G K I T G T V K R K L S S R L Stop
the chimpanzee sequence has one extra stop codon, but both share two premature stop codons. So if you're suggesting that mutation produced both of these independently in different species, any of your arguments based on "improbabilities" have less weight.

Replies to this message:
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monkenstick
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 24 (14924)
08-06-2002 8:50 PM


the ref?
I just searched for the sequences on genbank and used The BLAST programs and the translate tool at expasy
National Center for Biotechnology Information (GENBANK and BLAST)
SIB Swiss Institute of Bioinformatics | Expasy (TRANSLATE)

  
monkenstick
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 24 (14929)
08-06-2002 10:37 PM


Why I don't like any of those explanations;
1) The homology the human pseudogene has with mus musculus' working copy of urate oxidase really does point to this being a pseudogene.
"Score = 942 bits (490), Expect = 0.0
Identities = 775/915 (84%), Gaps = 3/915 (0%)
Strand = Plus / Plus"
2) "Horizontal transfer of pseudogenes (ie it is known that DNA sequences can be passed between organisms and become part of the inherited genome)"
Horizontal transfer of a pseudogene to chimpanzees and humans which is present as a working copy in their common ancestors and in most other mammals? Seems like a remarkable coincidence.
3)"Some natural agent preferentially changed the DNA bases at the same positions." seems like clutching at straws to me
4)"A supernatural agent preferentially changed the DNA bases at the same positions." I can't disprove a supernatural explanation, but I don't see that we need one when common descent explains the evidence so elegantly. Plus, the question remains as to why a supernatural agent changed the DNA bases in question in both chimpanzees and humans

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Tranquility Base, posted 08-06-2002 11:47 PM monkenstick has not replied

  
monkenstick
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 24 (14932)
08-07-2002 12:16 AM


I realise that, but were chimpanzees cursed as well? Psuedogenes in humans can be explained by the fall, can almost identical pseudogenes in chimpanzees and humans be explained by the fall? I haven't checked other primates, but I suspect some others also have homologous urate oxidase pseudogenes

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Tranquility Base, posted 08-07-2002 12:38 AM monkenstick has not replied

  
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