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Author Topic:   Size of the universe
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 599 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 211 of 248 (678676)
11-09-2012 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by kofh2u
11-09-2012 7:25 PM


Re: lost in space
No... the bible is right about seven:

Reread Genesis.

quote:
1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.


On the seventh day, He rested. There was no "creating" going on in the seventh day of Genesis.

In the Bible, creation takes six days, not seven.

Your diagrams specifically show things (ie, galaxies) being created on the "seventh day." Therefore either they or the Bible must be wrong.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.”
- Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by kofh2u, posted 11-09-2012 7:25 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by kofh2u, posted 11-10-2012 5:53 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9548
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 212 of 248 (678706)
11-09-2012 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by kofh2u
11-09-2012 6:05 PM


Re: lost in space
Here the whole cosmic evolution is expressed as seven stages of unfolding.

I seem to see eight flags in the picture, and I also don't see a Geological period mentioned in the unfolding. How do you get 7 stages?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by kofh2u, posted 11-09-2012 6:05 PM kofh2u has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15630
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 213 of 248 (678726)
11-10-2012 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by kofh2u
11-09-2012 6:05 PM


Re: lost in space
Hi Kofh2u,

Is your position that any breakdown of events into 7 stages lends support to the accounts in Genesis? Don't you need 6 stages of events followed by a static 7th stage? And doesn't your position mean that any breakdown of events into other numbers of stages argues against the accounts in Genesis?

Or more to the point, isn't the number of stages in anything irrelevant? Shouldn't you be looking for actual correspondences between scientifically verified events and events in the Genesis? For example, in your first diagram the 3rd stage still has no atoms, but on the 3rd day in Genesis there were already plants and trees "of every kind." Seems to me like there's no correspondence at all.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by kofh2u, posted 11-09-2012 6:05 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by kofh2u, posted 11-10-2012 6:24 PM Percy has responded
 Message 239 by kofh2u, posted 12-01-2012 10:12 AM Percy has responded

    
Eli
Member (Idle past 904 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


Message 214 of 248 (678778)
11-10-2012 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by kofh2u
11-09-2012 7:25 PM


Re: lost in space
Those are geological scales, not cosmological.

They are also categorically wrong.

There are 4 eons/10 eras, not 6 eras. You are mixing them up.

Ceno, mezo, paleo belong to the Phanerozoic eon.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by kofh2u, posted 11-09-2012 7:25 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by kofh2u, posted 11-10-2012 6:48 PM Eli has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11348
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 215 of 248 (678798)
11-10-2012 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Son Goku
11-08-2012 5:36 PM


Simplifying manifolds
Simplifying

Thank Son, lets just keep this rolling.

How the distances work on a particular manifold is given by an object called the metric.

So the metric is 'how the distances work'. It can be a mathematical equation where you input some particular of the manifold and determine the distance between them.

So lets look at the metric we're all familiar with:

The old X-Y Plane. To find the distance to the green dot, we use . That's the metric.

You can make the manifold more complicated by adding more dimensions:

And this will change the metric.

Some shapes (or spaces, which is the technical term) are too bizarre to be described using real numbers, although the use of these spaces is limited in physics.

If the manifold has a notion of distance between its points, then it is called a Riemannian manifold or a Pseudo-Riemannian manifold if one of the dimensions is time. The surface of the Earth is a Riemannian manifold, since there is a distance between points on the Earth's surface. The space of states is not, as you can't really say how far states are from each other.

People can use these manifolds to create some pretty cool shapes.

quote:
The Riemannian manifold is a very important extension of integral calculus, the idea of being able to take an integral over a complex and possibly curved surface, instead of just taking a measure over a simple flat surface like a line or a plane. The pictures here are a model of the real projective plane, a two dimensional surface that cannot be truly built in three dimensions because it must pass through itself without having a hole in the surface. The idea of the manifold is that this odd looking shape, and many other odd looking shapes, can be defined by covering the surface with a patchwork quilt of flat or nearly flat patches, and if two patches overlap, there is an "easy" method of matching points on one patch to the corresponding points on the other.


Hrm, that one's not hotlinking: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/...CqnVoStqug/s1600-h/rp2+model.jpg

lol - Someone made a kitty:


source

People are even using them to study biology:

quote:
Destruction of coral reefs is a serious issue, so surely no hyperbole? Ah, a simple error of diction. Actually hyperbolic space is a recognised mathematical model. As most people know, “hyperbolic n-space, denoted Hn, is the maximally symmetric, simply connected, n-dimensional Riemannian manifold with constant sectional curvature −1.”

You can create manifolds to see if and how they match observations to get a better understanding of the underlying causes of the way things happen. Some of the manifolds more accurately match observations of our Universe, itself, even. Like how Einstein's have.

As you say:

Einstein's Theory of General Relativity basically says that the energy density of matter determines the metric of spacetime.

That is, the energy density of matter at a point affects how the rules of distance work near that point.

The blog for the sculpture above had this to say:

quote:
Of all of Riemann's ideas, the manifold may be the most useful, because without it, Einstein would not have had a mathematical model for the idea of curved space.

This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1232 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 216 of 248 (678818)
11-10-2012 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Boof
11-09-2012 6:54 PM


Re: lost in space

(The seven stages of the Big Bang underline the favorite number of God)

Tremble before me mortals, I am God the almighty, creator of all. I am beyond, space, time and matter! I am eternal and omnipotent!

Also I'm a virgo, my favourite number is 7 and I just LOVE the smell of burnt goat.

I know, off topic - but seriously...

The numbers 12 and 3 are pretty redundant too.

The reason is that the Jews wrote cues and noted the facts stated in the Torah at the time of Moses.
They had a system to remember the Torah so that they could speak the words orally.

This was all done by the kohanim, the priests whose hands we still see on their tombstones in the Jewish cemeteries.


This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1232 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 217 of 248 (678820)
11-10-2012 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Rahvin
11-09-2012 7:31 PM


Re: lost in space

No... the bible is right about seven:

Reread Genesis.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the seventh day, He rested. There was no "creating" going on in the seventh day of Genesis.

In the Bible, creation takes six days, not seven.

Your diagrams specifically show things (ie, galaxies) being created on the "seventh day." Therefore either they or the Bible must be wrong.

... the evening (of the Mesozoic Era) and the morning (of the Cenozoic Era) were the sixth "day,"...

Gen. 1:31 And God, (The First Uncaused Cause), saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the (Cretaceous) evening (of the Mesozoic Era) and the (Quaternary) morning (of the Cenozoic Era) were the sixth "day,": [yom, in the Hebrew = duration]

The creation ended on the morning of the sixth day, which was the Quaternary Period of the Cenozoic Era.

The morning of the seventh day of rest began during the Tertiary Period of the Cenozoic Era:

NOTE:

1. Formative/Cosmologic Era-Hadean Era/ = First Day

2. Hadean Era-Archaean Era/ = Second Day

3. Archaean Era-Proterozoic Era/ = Third Day

4. Proterozoic Era-Paleozoic Era/ = Fourth Day

5. Paleozoic Era-Mesozoic Era/ = Fifth Day

6. Mesozoic Era- (Quaternary Period of the) Cenozoic Era/ = Six Day

7. (Tertiary Period of the) Cenozoic Era -Common Era/ = Seventh Day


This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1232 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 218 of 248 (678822)
11-10-2012 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Percy
11-10-2012 8:23 AM


Re: lost in space

Or more to the point, isn't the number of stages in anything irrelevant? Shouldn't you be looking for actual correspondences between scientifically verified events and events in the Genesis? For example, in your first diagram the 3rd stage still has no atoms, but on the 3rd day in Genesis there were already plants and trees "of every kind." Seems to me like there's no correspondence at all.

The redundant use of the number seven in both nature, (at least in regard to the use by scientists, inordinately classifying events and details that way) is matched by the Bible with such an over emphasis on that number.

It does not refer to the seven days of the creation that follow, but is merely commentariy above, in regard to Gen 1:1.

The point made above was merely illustrating that this verse refers to the seven stages of the Big Bang according to many scientists who whom seem to like seven also.

These scientists again demonstrate that creation as an overview that accommodates the numbering of seven major events, though they are not the same or kind as we read in genesis 1.

 number seven
Seven was regarded as a significant number in the ancient Near East, including ancient Israel, denoting divine completion.[32] It is embedded in the text of Genesis 1 (but not in Genesis 2) in a number of ways, besides the obvious seven-day framework: the word "God" occurs 35 times (7 ? 5) and "earth" 21 times (7 ? 3). The phrases "and it was so" and "God saw that it was good" occur 7 times each. The first sentence of Genesis 1:1, contains 7 Hebrew words, and the second sentence contains 14 words, while the verses about the seventh day (Genesis 2:1-3) contain 35 words in total.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Percy, posted 11-10-2012 8:23 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Percy, posted 11-10-2012 6:56 PM kofh2u has responded

    
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1232 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 219 of 248 (678825)
11-10-2012 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Eli
11-10-2012 10:17 AM


Re: lost in space

Those are geological scales, not cosmological.
They are also categorically wrong.

There are 4 eons/10 eras, not 6 eras. You are mixing them up.

Ceno, mezo, paleo belong to the Phanerozoic eon.

The organization of rock layers uses the suffix eons, eras, periods, epochs merely to signify the age of the layer, eons implying billions of years, eras in the millions, and periods and epochs significant shorter times.

If one lists all all the eons then the eras, etc the list is long.
But one counts six durations measured by the layers which are separated by cataclysmic events which is used as the Geological Clock.

These major six layers each contain sub-layers of various ages which use prefixes that indicate whether they are in the beginning, middle, or last stages of the particular layer:

The six major chronological layers are also biologically grouped into two sets of three Eras, depending upon whether there is abundant evidence of life in the rocks or not.

Biologically, the last three rock layers contain evidence of life, hence they are classified as Phanerozoic.
The same reasoning, albeit the absence of evidence of life in the first three rock layers are classified as Precambrian (before the great Cambrian life explosion).

These tags do NOT refer to rock layers but to whether life can be found inside the rocks that appeared in the order over time.

(Note the red explanation in red ink as per Berkeley explanation).


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 Message 214 by Eli, posted 11-10-2012 10:17 AM Eli has responded

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 15630
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.2


(2)
Message 220 of 248 (678828)
11-10-2012 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by kofh2u
11-10-2012 6:24 PM


Re: lost in space
Okay, I think I understand now. You think that numerology is evidence that the Bible knew about the nature of the universe before modern scientists. But numerology is nonsense, plus the events actually described in Genesis lack any correspondence to what actually happened.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by kofh2u, posted 11-10-2012 6:24 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by kofh2u, posted 11-13-2012 12:51 AM Percy has responded

    
Eli
Member (Idle past 904 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


Message 221 of 248 (678829)
11-10-2012 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by kofh2u
11-10-2012 5:39 PM


Re: lost in space
Yeah, that system was called "memorization."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by kofh2u, posted 11-10-2012 5:39 PM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
Eli
Member (Idle past 904 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


Message 222 of 248 (678830)
11-10-2012 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by kofh2u
11-10-2012 5:53 PM


Re: lost in space
That chart is in error.

You have eras and eons mixed up and are only giving half the picture.

geochronological eras are enumerated at 10, not six.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by kofh2u, posted 11-10-2012 5:53 PM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
Eli
Member (Idle past 904 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


(3)
Message 223 of 248 (678832)
11-10-2012 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by kofh2u
11-10-2012 6:48 PM


Re: lost in space
no. According to the ICS, which you already acknowledged as an authority, there is a clear distinction that eras are a subcategory of eons.

It should also be noted that the eoarchean era lasted 300 million years, which is nearly as long as the Phanerozoic eon (540 million years, indicated by your own provided graphic) so these divisions are not based on time or "billions of years v millions of years."

You have no grasp of this subject which is made obvious by your defining geochronological time using a biostratigraphical definition, which is a different, albeit related, subject.

Lastly, numerology is not a scientific topic. Please don't change the facts to suit your new wave agenda. We all know better.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by kofh2u, posted 11-10-2012 6:48 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by kofh2u, posted 11-13-2012 1:05 AM Eli has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1232 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 224 of 248 (679236)
11-13-2012 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Percy
11-10-2012 6:56 PM


Re: lost in space

Okay, I think I understand now.

You think that numerology is evidence that the Bible knew about the nature of the universe before modern scientists.
But numerology is nonsense, plus the events actually described in Genesis lack any correspondence to what actually happened.

Funny man.
You have descibed what you accuse me of.

1) What I think about sets of numbers is part of Group Theory.
My hypothesis concerns the assumptions that the human mind is a pattern seeking device.
That is the acepted idea of the mind at this time in some disciplines.

I add to this generally accepted idea that the "software" the computer-like Brain (used to operate the system of the mind it creates) has a fixed and ready pattern it throws over everything it contemplates.

The mind sends the seven sensory inputs into special physical brain locations which are the Categories to which Kant referred.

Recent laboratory experiments support some of this idea.

But common sense tends to convince an open minded person that this fixed pattern exists, since time has usually been of the essence for the mind to make decisions.
Hence the mind has a pattern to the way it first collects info from the seven senses, and then dips into an immense and genetically reproduced inventory iof possible "pictures" of the immediate situation at hand.
A choose is made usually based upon the descision making from a few dominant source ofthese inputs, and a reaction is almost instantly avaiable.
In other words, what the eyes see and the nose smells in some particular case invokes, create the whole mental picture of what exists at that moment.

This is because the pattern is always seven inouts that make sense one-to-one.

Mlodinow, Leonard. Subliminal: How Your Unconscious Mind Rules Your Behavior (Kindle Location 146). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

The unconscious mind… it is a gift of evolution that is crucial to our survival as a species. Conscious thought is a great aid in designing a car or deciphering the mathematical laws of nature, but for avoiding snake bites or cars that swerve into your path or people who may mean to harm you, only the speed and efficiency of the unconscious can save you. As we’ll see, to ensure our smooth functioning in both the physical and the social world, nature has dictated that many processes of perception, memory, attention, learning, and judgment are delegated to brain structures outside conscious awareness.

2) I believe that "the events actually described in Genesis... correspond to what actually happened" but the church people do not.

Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Percy, posted 11-10-2012 6:56 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Percy, posted 11-13-2012 3:57 AM kofh2u has responded

    
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1232 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 225 of 248 (679238)
11-13-2012 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Eli
11-10-2012 7:17 PM


Re: lost in space

According to the ICS, which you already acknowledged as an authority, there is a clear distinction that eras are a subcategory of eons.

True.

What I am talking about, though, is not the age each of these many layers, but the age of the Earth as measured by cataclysmic events marked in the layers at specific point, i.e., six places.

For instance, when using geology to discover these cataclysmic points that mark off the "days," the K-T point separated the Mesozoic layers from the Cenozoic Era.

Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Eli, posted 11-10-2012 7:17 PM Eli has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Eli, posted 11-13-2012 9:16 PM kofh2u has responded

    
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