Passover problems in the Gospels

Jazzns,Before we go any further, we need to establish when Passover is.I believe we are using two terms in a different manner.By the Eve of Passover, I mean the evening meal prior to the Passover evening meal. Perhaps this is where the confusion lies. My apologies if I was not clear. In other words, the Passover meal was eaten on Passover, in the evening. The prior evening, Jesus ate his last meal in John.But lets clarify when Passover is.Passover is the 14th, scripture backs this up. Its an 8 day festivel. Passover, one day, followed by seven more days of the Feast of Unleavened bread.This should help: OnlineTruth - Online Truth | Product Reviews | Gadgets | Technology Passover - WikipediaSo to clear everything up, here is my posistion.Passover is the 14th.The lamb was slain on Passover. Scripture backs this up. Josephus and Philo state this.Are we now in agreement? Please tell me if you are in disagreement with anything stated. If not, also let me know.Once we both are in agreement as to when Passover is, when the lamb is slain, I'll address your other issues.Thanks.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.Edited by hERICtic, : Added points...

We know its the Passover bc it states the lambs were killed on this day. Ok...I had to jump on this. First, there lies a problem with scripture. The Feast of Unleavened Bread was not when the lambs were sacrificed. The Feast started on the 15th. After the temple was destroyed, both the first day of Passover and the first day of the FOUB were combined. So just using this scripture you can "time" when this was written. After 70. Just thought I would add that in. Second, scripture above clearly states WHEN the lambs were killed. You tell me I'm incorrect, when in fact you're arguing with the scripture.What does the scripture state? First day of FOUB, lambs killed. The FOUB occurs after Passover in scripture. So obviously, its been moved up a day, to the Passover. So in effect, its stating the lambs were killed ON the Passover.To make this more clear. According to you, the lambs were slain the day BEFORE the Passover. So using the scripture above, which states the lambs were slain on the FOUB, you're saying this is the same day as the Eve of Passover? When is the Passover then?

Yes. If you read the wikipedia article I linked or just plain old search, you will find that what I said is true. The lamb was always killed BEFORE Passover mostly because it was a sin to work on the Passover. It is the same reason that the very pious Jews today prepare meals before the Sabbath on the day before.But to drive this point home, because the way Jews keep track of their days, the lamb was actually only slaughtered a few hours before Passover began because the new "day" started at sunset. So here is a timeline (according to the synoptics):1. Passover Eve begins the evening before Jesus and co. arrive.
2. Jesus and the disciples arrive in the day, Passover Eve
3. Jesus orders them to prepare for the Passover
4. Sunset means the end of Passover Eve and the start of Passover proper.
5. The last suppper, betrayal, etc.
6. The next "day" (sunrise) is STILL Passover proper.
7. Jesus is crucified. Okay. I see where you are confused. You are noticing that FOUB does not start with Passover eve. It is confusing but the basic point is simply that this is an error that Mark makes. The FOUB is IIRC the whole week and starts with Passover proper. This mistake that Mark makes is common when you reckon time according to Greek culture (similar to ours) in which you think of the daytime and that evening as the same "day". Technically, the FOUB did not start until that night with the Passover meal.If it was really the FOUB like Mark states, they would not have been able to do all of the preparations that Jesus ordered them to do. You basically would have had Jesus not just dismissing technicalities such as picking grain on the Sabbath, you would have a Gospel where Jesus is directly ordering his disciples to break the (high) Sabbath when it is clear they would not have to. It is an internal contradition to say that it is the first day of teh FOUB, and that they are going to go work to get ready for the Passover. It doesn't make any sense and it is just simply an error by Mark.This error helps to date Mark as well as give insight as to the author. He was probably a Helenized Jew, with traditions post temple destruction. After sunset, the evening after the lambs are slaughtered including the next day up to the next sunset.

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

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To make this more clear. According to you, the lambs were slain the day BEFORE the Passover.

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You seem to be missing a few points. First, according to scripture, the lamb was killed on the 14th, Passover.Exodus 12:6, Leviticus 23:5, 2Chronicles 35:1Second, when the lamb was slain has no bearing on our debate. Its when Jesus ate his last meal. In the synoptics, its on Passover.Matthew 26:17On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"Notice the Passover meal was not eaten yet.18He replied, "Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, 'The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.' " 19So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them and prepared the Passover.Jesus makes it clear he wishes to eat the Passover. We know its the Passover because:The FOUB is either AFTER the Passover or combined. If you wish to make it after the Passover, it screws up the timing even more so. Most likely, they are combined, which means the FOUB is on the same day as the Passover.20When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. 21And while they were eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me."Here is the last meal of Jesus. When? On Passover. It is not the day before Passover, its on Passover. Remember, it clearly states he ate his last meal on the FOUB. You state this last meal was the day before the Passover. Since it states its the FOUB, then the only conclusion from your train of thought, is that the FOUB is on the same day as the day BEFORE the Passover. This makes no sense.Luke also backs this up.22: 1Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching, 2and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people. 3Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.7Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover."Notice again. When is the lamb slain? On this very day. What is this day? The FOUB, which is the Passover. So, the lamb was slain on Passover.Not only do all three synoptics state this, its backed by OT scripture. Again, Jesus tells his followers to prepare the Passover. After its prepared, he has his last meal.Regardless if you wish to call his last meal a Passover meal, its still the same- Jesus was killed on the day AFTER Passover.How do we know? Bc after they prepare the Passover, its evening. After evening starts the next day. Jesus is killed the next day. Wrong. The lambs are slain on the 14th! The Passover. Again, here is Luke 22:7Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover."It is the Passover. Its not the day before the Passover, it is the Passover. Since we know Jesus ate his last meal on Passover, then morning came, it means its the next day. Jesus was killed the day after the Passover.Lets go back to Mark 14:12On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"We know its the Passover. Not the day before, but the Passover. We also know the lambs were slain on this day according to the synoptics.13So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. 14Say to the owner of the house he enters, 'The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' 15He will show you a large upper room, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there."Work is done to prepare the Passover.16The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.17When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray meone who is eating with me."Notice what it states. Evening came. So know a few things:1) Lamb is slain prior to evening.
2) Jesus tells his followers to prepare the Passover meal.
3) Logically, the meal they then eat is the Passover. But lets gloss over that. Jesus prepares for his last meal.
40 Then EVENING came. Now, anything after this point is another day. Up until this point, scripture clearly states the lamb was killed, therefore its Passover. The next day Jesus is killed.

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So using the scripture above, which states the lambs were slain on the FOUB, you're saying this is the same day as the Eve of Passover?

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I am not confused at all. You're admitting Mark (as well as the synoptics) makes a mistake, then you ignore what they state. The synoptics make it clear: Lamb was killed on Passover. In fact, you're ignoring scripture which clearly states the lamb was killed on the 14th, which is the Passover. The OT is clear on this. I gave you the verses. Twice. A sin to slay the lamb on Passover? Not only does scripture contradict you, Josephus and Philo also state the lambs were slain on the 14th, which is the Passover, but so does every Jewish site I have gone to.

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When is the Passover then?

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Which again goes against scripture, against Josephus and Philo and every Jewish site I have read. Maybe this will help:LOM Loans – Financial information and loan guides.Ok, my wife is giving me dirty looks. Time to take a break. How about giving some scripture which states the lamb is killed on the 13th? I've already given plenty of scripture that it is to occur on the Passover, the 14th.Bye.

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AdminPD

I think the problem is that some are using the term eve as it means now, not what it meant when the Bible was translated. Eve meant "the evening of" which preceded the day(morning). The 14th started at sundown, that was the eve and the morning started at sun up. the meal was eaten on the 15th in the evening and the crucifixion on the 15th in the morning.Edited by bluescat48, : wrong date

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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You seem to be missing a few points. First, according to scripture, the lamb was killed on the 14th, Passover.

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Read the scripture carefully. Passover is the 15th. Jazzns is correct.The lamb is slaughtered at twilight on the 14th. (Exodus 12:6)
That night, which for Jews is now the next day, they were to cook and eat the meat on the 15th. (Exodus 12:8)God passed over them that night, not before twilight.The Feast of Unleavened Bread is the next day after the Passover meal. (Exodus 12:17) Passover StorySo when we look at the Book of Mark we see the author is incorrect. It was not customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.Overlooking that, Jesus was eating the Passover meal. They prepared it on the 14th and after twilight they ate the meal which is then the 15th and Passover.The Gospel of John isn't specific. Jesus could still be viewed as eating the Passover meal.The words "just before" doesn't tell us how much time. It could be a few minutes before it was served. It could be a day or two.Given that the evening meal was being served, I would say that it was the Passover meal being served. The author of John didn't go into as much detail.

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Ok, my wife is giving me dirty looks. Time to take a break. How about giving some scripture which states the lamb is killed on the 13th? I've already given plenty of scripture that it is to occur on the Passover, the 14th.

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The scripture shows the lamb is slaughtered on the 14th and Passover is on the 15th.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

Hi. Purple? Dawn? I do not think Jazzns said the Passover is on the 15th.But to address your point- Passover is not the 15th. Maybe using todays time frame, midnight. But to the Jews, it was the 14th.From the site you gave:In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month between the two evenings is the LORD'S Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD; seven days ye shall eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work. And ye shall bring an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days; in the seventh day is a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work. (Leviticus 23:5)Notice what it states. Passover is the 14th. FOUB starts on the 15th. The synoptics joined them together. Moving the FOUB a day forward. I agree 100%. Normally, the lamb is not slain on the FOUB, yet the authors not only make that claim, they also state its the Passover!Luke 22: 7Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover."The bottom line is that Jesus ate his last meal on the day the lamb was slain. The lamb is slain on the 14th, which is the Passover.

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I do not think Jazzns said the Passover is on the 15th.

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He didn't, but he was describing the event correctly.Jewish days go from nightfall to nightfall.Between the two evenings means between dusk and dawn.The lamb is slaughtered on the 14th. The 15th starts after dark. The lamb is eaten after dark on the 15th.The FOUB starts the morning of the 15th. Think of the Exodus story. Read the whole Exodus story.They killed the lambs at twilight and spread the blood over the door.
They cooked and ate the lamb later that evening as the horror passed over those who put blood on the door.
The next day they supposedly left so fast that they didn't have time to put leaven in their bread.

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Notice what it states. Passover is the 14th. FOUB starts on the 15th. The synoptics joined them together. Moving the FOUB a day forward.

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No the Synoptics put the FOUB on the day they slaughter the lambs.

The Israelites counted their day from sundown to sundown so Passover day would actually begin at sundown at the end of the 13th day of Abib (Nisan).Ex12.6 says the animal was to be slaughtered between the two evenings.
In view of Exodus 12:17,18, Leviticus 23:5-7, and Deuteronomy 16:6,7, the evidence points to the time between sunset and complete darkness. And this view is held by numerous jewish groups and commentators.So this would mean that the lamb was eaten well after sundown on Nisan 14, which is why the gospels state that Jesus and his apostles observed the Passover meal after evening had fallen. (Mr 14:17; Mt 26:20) It also tells us at John 13.30 that when Judas left the building, he went out immediately after the Passover observance, And it was night.It was still early in Nisan 14 at this time and it would continue to be Nisan 14 until the sun rose the following morning and decended that same evening.... and when it ascended again it would become Nisan 15.

PD,You originally stated Passover started on the 15th. You're contradicting yourself now. The lamb is slaughtered on the 14th, as you admitted. The 14th, as per the OT, per scripture is the Passover.We are getting into semantics here. Jesus could have eaten his last meal late 14th or early 15th. It does not matter.The point is that his followers prepared his last meal on the 14th, on the day of Passover, the day the lamb is slaughtered, per the synoptics. The OT, clearly states the 14th is the first day of Passover.Once evening is starts, a new day begins. So the lamb is slaughtered before the evening-sometime during whatever hour you choose, Passover. Evening arrives, new day. Next morning comes, afternoon arrives- Jesus is killed. This would be the day after Passover.In John, Jesus is killed on Passover.

Not sure if you are stating the meal they are eating is the Passover meal or that they are going to observe it in the future. The meal they were having could not have been a Passover one, since his followers assumed he was taking the money to buy what was needed for Passover.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

his diciples assumed nothing. the account clearly states that they did not know the reason why Jesus was sending Judas out or for what purpose. "but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him....some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor."How you draw such a conclusion from this verse is beyond me.The fact is that Judas was sent out AFTER the passover had been eaten. The next meal they were partaking of was not the Passover but the 'Lords Evening Meal' otherwise known as 'The Last Supper'it was something entirely different to the passover and Jesus did not partake of it, only the diciples did. Jesus passed them the bread and the wine and they ate and drank it but he himself did not. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

A quick point.... Luke and Matthew both copied Mark. They are not independent sources for this. They in fact all get it wrong.Now on to the point.We happen to have tools at our disposal to solve this problem. I like to use Google. Go there now yourself in a separate window. Its okay, I'll wait....Okay great. Now type into the search box the following phrase. "what day is passover". And click "Search".These are the first 5 links that I get. Yours may be different but will probably be very similar.Passover - Wikipedia When is Passover? - Passover Calendar 2023 (edited)Just a moment... Passover Calendar - Passover 2018 Date - When Is Passover 2018 - Passover Date 2018 Passover Holiday Information | Holidays.net So ask yourself this. Why does every single source that you can find say that it is the 15th? In fact, your OWN SOURCE says that it is the 15th!LOM Loans – Financial information and loan guides. (the link that YOU provided) All emphasis is mine. Mark makes the mistake (which Matthew and Luke copy) that the FOUB unleavened bread begins the day of the sacrifice. Its not even that big of a deal if you just take into account the different reckoning of days as I have been saying since my first post in this thread.As for your verses, you gave me OT verses which you totally and utterly misunderstand. Your own source explains the situation perfectly. The Lamb IS NOT killed on Passover. From your same Exodus quote: It is a SIN to work on passover and slaughtering an animal was considered work. It is just like the Sabbath. OF COURSE the lamb is slain on the 14th! Nobody is disputing that. But the 14th is NOT Passover!You have tools at your disposal to look this stuff up. Your OWN LINK contradicts you. It is blindingly obvious that you are wrong and all you have to do is reach out and take the knowledge to remedy your ignorance.

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

Can you please explain how you get the 13th out of that? It can be forgiven to mistake the 14th as the start of Passover but the 13th is just wacky.Come to think of it, I can sort of see what you are doing, you are reversing the way the evenings are reckoned. You seem to be getting caught up in the language a bit. When these verses talk about the evening of the 14th, it means the 15th not the start of the 14th.Not that it matters too much though, there are no numbered days in the Gospels and the relative time markers make it pretty clear that the Synoptics and John are in contradiction.Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson